Metropolitan Police officer arrested

[Apthorpe]

The Cheltenham Festival took place from 10 – 13 Mar 2020. 251,684 people attended the 4 day event. As you say, some would have been indoors, but a minority. The majority would have been outdoors. NHS Test and Trace was only launched at the end of May 2020. So any "investigations" into where people may have contracted the virus were being done at that point by the hospitals themselves when Covid patients were being admitted. My source for citing the 2020 Cheltenham races is a very high-up in Gloucestershire Public Health who is a friend and former neighbour and whom I have no reason to disbelieve. The common denominator in the majority of these cases was, reportedly, the race event (for Gloucestershire).

The odd thing is that the data recorded doesn't really support that conclusion. In a presentation given by the Director of Public Health in Gloucestershire in May 2020, the case numbers do not exhibit a spike attributable to the Festival and she stated that the results "broadly mirrored the national picture". She went on to show further data that also does not support the contention that Cheltenham suffered a spike because of the Festival. Death rates were not statistically different from comparable areas.


Edge Health - a startup private health company seems to be behind the claim there was an identifiable spike from an April 2020 study and I have already referred to that.

A week of full hotels, bars, betting shops, transport, restaurants etc even by a minority will have had a far greater effect on transmission. All the available medical evidence is that the chance of transmission outdoors is very much lower - one study gave a mean estimate of 18.7 times lower and confidently between 6 and 59 times lower. In fact, there is very little evidence at all of outdoor transmission of covid at all. To the extent that there was actually any spike of infection associated with Cheltenham - and evidence of that is thin, it is far more rational to attribute it to indoor infection in bars, hotels, betting shops etc. than to insist on something that the known data does not support. The medical evidence is that people catch it indoors. It's simply implausible that outdoor transmission caused any harm.

 

[Alantoo]

To the extent that spike shows anything at all, it shows that locals were catching it, and probably indoors.
In order to believe that the outdoor gathering was the source of transmission, you have to believe that the racegoers were not going indoors at any point, which seems something of a stretch.

As you say, some would have been indoors, but a minority. The majority would have been outdoors.

Race week in Cheltenham is horrendous for the locals. Great for landlords and hospitality staff...All the pubs, restaurants, hotels, holiday cottages, B&Bs, station and trains are crowded more than usual as a direct result of the Festival attendees...

I can't think it makes much difference whether Covid transmission to locals took place in the race track hospitality suites or in the pubs, hotels and restaurants afterwards, the influx and concentration of people in the area is as a direct result of the Festival.

The fact that some of the racegoers are crowded together outside for a few hours of the day doesn't mean that festival would be unlikely to provide a vehicle for the spread of a covid.

If Cheltenham really had any effect in spreading disease you'd have expected a spike in Ireland the week after, and that didn't happen.

I am not surprised there was not a corresponding spike found in Ireland, wouldn't that only have appeared if all the festival attendees were from the same area over there?

Alan

 

[User00036]

For what it's worth, there are times when police can be justified in striking someone on the head.

Wow. So does that include killing someone, because theres a fairly good chance of it happening, or hitting women on the head with a truncheon. Sorry mate, but thats Russia, or Burma or Hong Kong,or just bonkers.

 

[bobthedug]

Wow. So does that include killing someone, because theres a fairly good chance of it happening, or hitting women on the head with a truncheon. Sorry mate, but thats Russia, or Burma or Hong Kong,or just bonkers.

In certain circumstances, a police officer may be justified in striking someone in the head.
At the end of the day, he would have to be able to justify his or hers actions.
Why is it bonkers. Body or arm strikes on a knife welding assailant who is stabbing you or someone else.
Just keep hitting his arm or hand in the hope he eventually drops it?
I speak from experience and it was in Scotland. Not that geography has anything to do with it.

 

[User00036]

I didn't see too many knife wielding maniacs at the Countryside march.

 

[Apthorpe]

Race week in Cheltenham is horrendous for the locals. Great for landlords and hospitality staff...All the pubs, restaurants, hotels, holiday cottages, B&Bs, station and trains are crowded more than usual as a direct result of the Festival attendees...

I can't think it makes much difference whether Covid transmission to locals took place in the race track hospitality suites or in the pubs, hotels and restaurants afterwards, the influx and concentration of people in the area is as a direct result of the Festival.

I think you've missed the point we were debating which was whether significant transmission occurred outdoors, not whether transmission is increased by crowding indoors.

The fact that some of the racegoers are crowded together outside for a few hours of the day doesn't mean that festival would be unlikely to provide a vehicle for the spread of a covid.



I am not surprised there was not a corresponding spike found in Ireland, wouldn't that only have appeared if all the festival attendees were from the same area over there?

Alan

The short answer is "no, where they lived in ireland would habe no relevance". If they caught covid at the festival in any numbers, then that would have been detectable in the figures for ireland, which is half the size of London in population terms and had very few cases at all at that time. FWIW Ireland's Chief Medical Officer is on record stating that there's no evidence Cheltenham caused a spike. Pretty much the main proponents of the theory are the Guardian and Piers Moron. And, on that note, it seems an appropriare moment to let the topic rest.

 

[Alantoo]

I think you've missed the point we were debating which was whether significant transmission occurred outdoors, not whether transmission is increased by crowding indoors.

The point I was making was that although it is an outdoor event the festival attendees spend most of their time during the week indoors.

I was agreeing with the idea of greater likelihood of indoor transmission, but pointing out that the "outdoor" festival was still responsible for many people being in crowded conditions indoors in the Cheltenham area over the week.

Alan

 

[gixer1]

Here is a short video showing another aspect of what went on at the vigil.
The girl who is paraded on the MSM has a different side to that portrayed.

Baton round...right in the fanny...nothing else for it...

 

[gixer1]

On a more serious note - the occupation of this animal matters not a jot to me. He’s a bad apple, nothing more. Hopefully the judicial system sorts him out.

As for any form of protest - no problem with it until the protests start infringing on others rights or they become abusive (as many did at this vigil) after that, in my opinion they are fair game. Crowds of people being goaded on and turning into an angry mob is very strange to watch, it’s like fire spreading and needs to be put out as fast as possible.

I find nowadays “protest” is a word used far too often when people want to be a pain in the ar*e and be anti-establishment, anti-government or just anarchists. I have zero tolerance for it and when a spitting, shouting kicking”protester” is brought to the ground face first I get a warm feeling.

as a general rule I find if you toe the line and behave the police are not usually a problem at all....yes, there are the odd power hungry ones but they are few and far between from what I have seen.

R.I.P to this young lady and I hope the persons that brought about her demise rot.

Regards
Gixer

 

[Alantoo]

As for any form of protest - no problem with it until the protests start infringing on others rights or they become abusive (as many did at this vigil) after that, in my opinion they are fair game. Crowds of people being goaded on and turning into an angry mob is very strange to watch, it’s like fire spreading and needs to be put out as fast as possible.

I find nowadays “protest” is a word used far too often when people want to be a pain in the ar*e and be anti-establishment, anti-government or just anarchists. I have zero tolerance for it and when a spitting, shouting kicking”protester” is brought to the ground face first I get a warm feeling.

as a general rule I find if you toe the line and behave the police are not usually a problem at all....yes, there are the odd power hungry ones but they are few and far between from what I have seen.

Mob dynamics horrible...witness the crowd being goaded in Washington recently.

We are so easily manipulated by the reporters' wish for sensationalism though.

The only demonstration I have been on, and vowed never again because of the skewed reporting...was when Margaret Thatcher cancelled school milk and cut the catering budget across the board when she was Minister for Education in the early 70s. A perfectly peaceful and good humoured event...the only naughty thing done was by a group of professional protestors with a grand "poles, guy ropes and tassels" Anarchist banner which they did not give up before entering Parliament Square as the rest of us dutifully had. All our stick and cardboard placards were collected and cleared away by the Student Union.

Around 4pm a two abreast column of Policemen walked through the crowd to the door, faced each other, linked arms and pushed backwards, and then stood to form a lined corridor for those leaving the House.

The only scene shown on the TV news that night and the papers next day, was of a line of Police with linked arms heaving back against an apparently surging crowd of baying students chanting "All who hate Thatcher clap your hands". The only 30 second part out of the whole afternoon where there was any physical contact between the crowd and those policing it.

Alan

 

[User00036]

Baton round...right in the fanny...nothing else for it...

C'mon Gixer, thats not even funny, the woman clearly had mental health issues, maybe even brought about by violent men. The policeman showed admirable restraint. There are unwritten laws in life, it doesn't matter how much provocation there may be, you never ever raise your fist to a woman, as my old man said to me, "you take the hit & you walk away, end of." I think you would be amazed at the level of violence & rape of women that goes unrecorded, this so called vigil was trying to highlight it. Likewise I agree that bastard should rot, but he will probably end up being called Susan by his fellow inmates, & given a "hard" time.

 

[Stalker62]

In certain circumstances, a police officer may be justified in striking someone in the head.

It was a lifetime ago in the days of Met Police Cadets - these were 17-18 year olds who joined the Cadets as a probable route into the Force "proper".

Part of their "cadetship" was working in the community. One of the lads was attached to a "Mental Care Facility" (asylum as was).
He came onto the ward one day, to find one of the patients had pinned a Doctor down onto the floor and was repeatedly smashing the Doctor's head into the floor.

This young Cadet ran across and drop kicked (with his highly polished Cadet boots) the patient in the face, causing him to release his grip on the barely conscious medic, thereby saving the Doctor's life.

Drastic, violent action, taken by a young kid.

Yeah. I am afraid that sometimes, sometimes, people need to get hit in the head.

All use if force is regrettable and all use of force is fully investigated (as it should be).

I am grateful that there are still those men and women who step up (in all walks of life) and are prepared to do so, in order to protect the rest of us.

 

[gixer1]

it doesn't matter how much provocation there may be, you never ever raise your fist to a woman, as my old man said to me, "you take the hit & you walk away, end of."

Sorry, but I disagree with some of what you are saying. My old man said something similar; but I follow my mother’s wisdom there (and passed it onto my son and daughter) - “never lay your hands on anyone, unless to defend yourself”....to me, I am not sexist in anyway...man or woman, if you lay your hands on me, you are fair game. If I was set about by a female in town I would defend myself as required.

To be honest I’m a bit fed up with the one way gender equality. It seems to be fine in some cases for women to get away with slapping the **** out of a guy and there is this expectation that the guy shouldn’t defend himself...that’s wrong. By all means never be the offensive one, but always defend yourself! If we want true gender equality we need to apply it to all things (and in my opinion that’s why we will never achieve it)

some of the most vicious attacks I have seen have been by the female of the species. I had this discussion with someone recently, a mans body is just as at risk of a stab wound as a woman’s!

I remember watching a group of women (5 I think) trying to set about a guys girlfriend in the city centre at a taxi rank, the guy tried to protect his girlfriend by just standing between them and the women then set about him punching at him and scratching at him....he lamped one of them and put her straight on her ar5e and it was amazing how quickly the others stopped in their tracks! Good on him I say!

it’s a simple concept - don’t lay your hands on anyone and especially don’t complain about it if you do and they come back at you and clobber you!

Regards,
Gixer

 

[bobthedug]

Sorry, but I disagree with some of what you are saying. My old man said something similar; but I follow my mother’s wisdom there (and passed it onto my son and daughter) - “never lay your hands on anyone, unless to defend yourself”....to me, I am not sexist in anyway...man or woman, if you lay your hands on me, you are fair game. If I was set about by a female in town I would defend myself as required.

To be honest I’m a bit fed up with the one way gender equality. It seems to be fine in some cases for women to get away with slapping the **** out of a guy and there is this expectation that the guy shouldn’t defend himself...that’s wrong. By all means never be the offensive one, but always defend yourself! Regards f we want true gender equality we need to apply it to all things (and in my opinion that’s why we will never

some of the most vicious attacks I have seen have been by the female of the species. I had this discussion with someone recently, a mans body is just as at risk of a stab wound and a woman’s!

I remember watching a group of women (5 I think) trying to set about a guys girlfriend in the city centre at a taxi rank, the guy tried to protect his girlfriend by just standing between them and the women then set about him punching at him and scratching at him....he lamped one of them and put her straight on her ar5e and it was amazing how quickly the others stopped in their tracks! Good on him I say!

it’s a simple concept - don’t lay your hands on anyone and especially don’t complain about it if you do and they come back at you and clobber you!

Regards,
Gixer

Well said. Your last paragraph sums things up perfectly.

 

[Stalker62]

There are unwritten laws in life, it doesn't matter how much provocation there may be, you never ever raise your fist to a woman, as my old man said to me, "you take the hit & you walk away, end of."

You clearly have strong views on the issue. Nothing wrong with having strong views.

I am very fortunate that I have never had cause to strike a woman. That is not to say, that I could not conceive of circumstances, when in the defence of myself or others, I would have to.

I once spent eighteen months on a Domestic Violence Unit (DVU) and what goes on in these situations is dreadful. At the annual conference one year, a DVU from another part of the country gave a presentation on DV against women. Questions came from the floor, about DV against men. We were told that was not up for discussion as this was about DV against women. Point of fact: 10% of (recorded) victims of DV are male. That presentation was uncomfortable for me because it excluded 10% of victims on the basis of their sex.

One of my male junior colleagues, regularly turned up for work bearing the marks and scars of a weekend rugby player. He did not play rugby. Once day he rocked up for work with his eye closed and massive facial contusions. His wife had taken him out with a golf club. He suffered this for years. He never once (that I know) retaliated. He was a better man than I.

I moved on and so do not know how things ended for him. It is not unusual (as this post proves) that he pops back into my conscious when I offer a silent prayer of thanks for a life I never had to live.

 

[bobthedug]

You clearly have strong views on the issue. Nothing wrong with having strong views.

I am very fortunate that I have never had cause to strike a woman. That is not to say, that I could not conceive of circumstances, when in the defence of myself or others, I would have to.

I once spent eighteen months on a Domestic Violence Unit (DVU) and what goes on in these situations is dreadful. At the annual conference one year, a DVU from another part of the country gave a presentation on DV against women. Questions came from the floor, about DV against men. We were told that was not up for discussion as this was about DV against women. Point of fact: 10% of (recorded) victims of DV are male. That presentation was uncomfortable for me because it excluded 10% of victims on the basis of their sex.

One of my male junior colleagues, regularly turned up for work bearing the marks and scars of a weekend rugby player. He did not play rugby. Once day he rocked up for work with his eye closed and massive facial contusions. His wife had taken him out with a golf club. He suffered this for years. He never once (that I know) retaliated. He was a better man than I.

I moved on and so do not know how things ended for him. It is not unusual (as this post proves) that he pops back into my conscious when I offer a silent prayer of thanks for a life I never had to live.

I also knew a chap who was a silent victim of horrific domestic violence.
I got to know him through the job and it became apparent to me that him being "accident prone" was only when home.
He was a powerfully built man and his wife was barely 5 ft tall and built like a twig.
He taught Geography at a Glasgow high school and despite picking up dozens of cuts and bruises and one time I know of, a severe burn, he never retaliated.
By pure coincidence, I was at a job and I recognised this guys 4 x 4 at one of our vehicle pounds.
I was shocked to see the drivers seat and floor well were saturated in blood.
I was not shocked to learn this poor chap had walked from his house, got into his car and bleed to death from a stab wound inflicted by his wife.

 

[User00036]

Sorry to hear such heartbreaking stories, love sometimes makes you blind. My daughter is training as a paramedic, & like the police & fire crews who knows how she will cope with the horrors that she will encounter as part of the job. I once went out with a girl, I went into the pantry & when I came out I just happened to see her aim a blow at my head, I ducked & she stuck a carving knife in the door frame with such force that while she struggled to get it out, I ran outside with the dog, got in the truck & vanished fast.It missed my head by an inch. I don't know who was more scared , me or the dog, & he was an absolute bone crusher. Never saw her again, but it shook me up I can tell you. Bunny Boiler psycho,, but with a childhood like the one she had, its just sad.

 

[gixer1]

Sorry to hear such heartbreaking stories, love sometimes makes you blind. My daughter is training as a paramedic, & like the police & fire crews who knows how she will cope with the horrors that she will encounter as part of the job. I once went out with a girl, I went into the pantry & when I came out I just happened to see her aim a blow at my head, I ducked & she stuck a carving knife in the door frame with such force that while she struggled to get it out, I ran outside with the dog, got in the truck & vanished fast.It missed my head by an inch. I don't know who was more scared , me or the dog, & he was an absolute bone crusher. Never saw her again, but it shook me up I can tell you. Bunny Boiler psycho,, but with a childhood like the one she had, its just sad.

Baton round to the fanny again....

 

[Woodsmoke]

Never saw her again

I'm damn sure I would've. In the company of the police officers she was reported to . . . .

 

[gixer1]

I'm damn sure I would've. In the company of the police officers she was reported to . . . .

I honestly believe that sometimes this can be difficult for a male to push through. I have witnessed an absolute psychopath of a woman doing her best to ruin a guy....it’s really not much fun for them and at the time the guy was reluctant to call the police...he didn’t, but during one argument she did...the police attended and said he would be better leaving the property for a while to let things cool down...he refused due to her doing damage to his things...the police said he needed to go as she was getting more and more erratic...the police marched the guy out but she made sure she waited at the door wasting a handful of sweets and making comments...the guy knocked the sweets out of her hand as he walked past....and this lead to an assault charge.

the police had no choice as she was shouting and screaming about the offence.

that all went to court and was read out as “assault involving confectionary” or some such ridiculous title.

the idiot went back to her and she admitted by letter that many of the complaints she had made were untrue...but by that point it was too late for the guy,

Sad situation but absolutely true and it took away a part of the guys life.

regards,
Gixer