I do believe so from my earlier reading. The fumes from old dental amalgam were said to be particularly bad for you.
EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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I do believe so from my earlier reading. The fumes from old dental amalgam were said to be particularly bad for you.
It is fumes from mercury that do for you I think. There were very few rag gilders who reached pension age.
Alan
Alan
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Mercury fumes are a big problem across Africa because there are so many small-scale gold-miners. I seem to remember that the buyers/aggregators are at particular risk because it is them that burn off the mercury when assessing/weighing the gold.
Good links Conor.The OP is about the proposed EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles. The following reports are relevant to the proposals:
Homepage - ECHA
echa.europa.eu
Homepage - ECHA
It would be interesting to hear some views on the above reports - there is lots of science and also lots of possible exceptions/derogations.
First skim, of the first one, and I read that:
The water solubility has been
determined with a representative
sample to be 185 mg/L at 20°C
(study result, EU A.6 method).
Which rings a bell with me about just how nasty the stuff is old household plumbing. Proven. Facts and data out there.
That is 185 parts per million. Or 185,000 parts per billion.
So, after a few days, each fragment of a bullet, or shot, might be expected to be surrounded by a thin (?) layer of contaminated meat, saturated in dissolved lead. The concentration obviously dependent on the makeup of the bodily fluids surrounding it. The pH of blood is slightly on the basic side, so I think that figure stands.
Is this an issue for lead shot ? Well probably not, unless the bird or whatever, has been blown to bits by a poor shot.
Might it be an issue for other game, shot with a lead based bullet, that fragments into tiny undetectable particles, spread widely throughout the meat in proximity to the wound. Well, yes, I think it might just be. Lovers of leads bullets like to talk about "retained weight" when they can actually recover the things. But all that non retained weight is presumably splattered about the carcase in fine particles, some in edible meat, maybe most in discarded bits if you take a traditional heart/lung shot.
Generally, it seems to me, the none lead rifle bullets retain their weight very well. Little ends up in the carcase. And what might, is not toxic lead. OK it's copper, or brass, or tin, or whatever. That worries me far less.
As for those who think that elemental lead is harmless, chomp on it as much as you like it will just pass through you unchanged, well it ain't necessarily so.
"Mad as a hatter" springs to mind. Something to do with them using mercuric compounds when processing the felt. And was it not suggested that Napoleon died in exile because his wallpaper, printed with mercury pigments, had got damp and mouldy, thereby slowly poisoning him. Still, it was the only treatment for VD in those days, inject a good gobbet up the penis to lie in the bladder. for some of it to be absorbed Might have killed the nasties and I suppose the effects on the patient outweighed those if left untreated.
Mercury in fish ? Yes, lots of it in tuna. Even more in shark, swordfish and marlin. Top of the food chain.
As with our raptors, gobbling up lead does them no good. Offer a committed falconer some body shot rabbit for example, and hear them politely decline it. Didn't Johnny Gryphon once tell us about how one of his friend's dogs nearly died due to lead poisoning from being fed on bits of meat that he had shot but chose not to eat himself ?
Here's what our government has to say about it (and other fishy toxins):
On the basis of the COT opinion, the FSA has advised that pregnant women, women intending to become pregnant and children under 16 should avoid eating shark, marlin and swordfish. One weekly portion of these fish would not be harmful for other adults. Pregnant women and women intending to become pregnant may eat to up to four medium-size cans or two tuna steaks a week. Children and other adults do not need to restrict the amount of tuna they eat.
For an extreme case, look up Minimata disease. But that was from unforgiveable industrial pollution.
I have heard that about hatters from somewhere.
I understand it was the arsenical green rather than mercury in Boney’s wall paper that was the problem.
While I am in helpful mode it was Dodgyknees own dog in New Zealand that suffered poisoning from some lead contaminated venison. But same side of the world at least!
I understand it was the arsenical green rather than mercury in Boney’s wall paper that was the problem.
While I am in helpful mode it was Dodgyknees own dog in New Zealand that suffered poisoning from some lead contaminated venison. But same side of the world at least!
Thanks, you are correct about Napoleons's wallpaper, but apparently it was red and gold. Still arsenic based.
Some fascinating history, well worth a read:
Death by Wallpaper: The Alluring Arsenic Colors that Poisoned the Victorian Age
Death by Wallpaper: The Alluring Arsenic Colors that Poisoned the Victorian Age
Lucinda Hawksley's book Bitten by Witch Fever chronicles the rise of poisonous pigments in the 19th century through the burgeoning British wallpaper trade.
hyperallergic.com
See an analysis of a piece of Napoleon's wallpaper:
Arsenic in Napoleon's wallpaper - Nature
Napoleon's illness and death on St Helena have been the subject of controversy. His symptoms have been compared with those of arsenic poisoning1–3, and arsenic has been found in surviving samples of his hair4–8. During the nineteenth century, many people were accidentally poisoned by arsenical...
www.nature.com
As to Mad Hatters, well wikipedia has a page about that. Also an interesting read (well I thought so anyway).
Mad as a hatter - Wikipedia
Thanks for reminding me that it was dodgyknees who had the poorly dogs, that let me search out the post. What's not apocryphal, it would seem, is how ill dodgyknees' dog became after feeding on meat laced with lead bullet fragments. Which I think is relevant to this discussion, after my digression from the subject.
For those interested, see his thread at I have poisoned my dogs His post #42 summarises things. Was it actually lead that harmed his dogs ? Well the vet said that it was.
Vet reported back next morning, "acute" lead poisoning, i.e. one dose, fast response. As different from a chronic build up over time.
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For those interested in how lead shot is made, there is a summary at http://www.feskent.co.uk/history.pdf
Gamebore are the last company left in Britain still using their shot tower to make all their shot, exclusively for their own use.
Locatelli in in Italy are the major European manufacturer using a shot tower. Theirs is 50m high, and they put 10,000 tonnes of lead through it per year. That's at least 27 tonnes per day !
www.locatellisnc.it
Where does steel shot get made ? Well there is one UK company that has been doing it for over 20 years, one of the first in the business they say. Probably a bright future ahead for them.
steel-shot.co.uk
Interestingly Clay & Game is their retail outlet, if you want to reload some yourself.
Finally a quaint film from 1950. The process is the same, but I imagine health and safety is more stringent these days.
Even earlier, 1940:
Here is an historic shot tower in Europe. Dating back to 1886 (though rebuilt in 1911. Nowadays a tourist attraction, the factory makes it differently nowadays, but they still run it occasionally, to keep it operational. Daugavpils Latvia.
www.dsr.lv
Gamebore are the last company left in Britain still using their shot tower to make all their shot, exclusively for their own use.
Locatelli in in Italy are the major European manufacturer using a shot tower. Theirs is 50m high, and they put 10,000 tonnes of lead through it per year. That's at least 27 tonnes per day !
Locatelli srl-Company
Where does steel shot get made ? Well there is one UK company that has been doing it for over 20 years, one of the first in the business they say. Probably a bright future ahead for them.
Steel Shot Company- The Lead Free Alternative
The Steel Shot Company Ltd, based in Hull, England provides an environmentally friendly lead free product to the shot shell ammunition manufacturing industry.
steel-shot.co.uk
Interestingly Clay & Game is their retail outlet, if you want to reload some yourself.
Finally a quaint film from 1950. The process is the same, but I imagine health and safety is more stringent these days.
Even earlier, 1940:
Here is an historic shot tower in Europe. Dating back to 1886 (though rebuilt in 1911. Nowadays a tourist attraction, the factory makes it differently nowadays, but they still run it occasionally, to keep it operational. Daugavpils Latvia.
For visitors : Daugavpils Shot Factory
And then there are other chemicals that gardeners have long used with impunity, in the mistaken belief that they pose no risk to humans or wildlife. Take Burgundy mixture or Bordeaux mixture, both copper-sulphate sprays used as a preventative fungicide on potato crops and still seen by some kitchen gardeners as an entirely safe organic alternative to Dithane (now also withdrawn). In fact, organically certified commercial growers are only allowed to use such copper-based sprays with special permission (a thing called a “derogation” that the grower must apply for) and only in very limited quantities. The reason is that copper is a heavy metal which gradually accumulates in the soil, with unpleasant consequences for earthworms and, some studies suggest, for human health.
I wonder if BASC will suggest copper should be banned ?
Its a heavy metal accumulates in soil and is probably more dangerous than cats to wild life - the world has gone mad is there any need to follow it ?
I wonder if BASC will suggest copper should be banned ?
Its a heavy metal accumulates in soil and is probably more dangerous than cats to wild life - the world has gone mad is there any need to follow it ?
gerarddwatts
Well-Known Member
Plans announced to phase out lead ammunition in bid to protect wildlife
The Government is considering a ban of lead ammunition to protect wildlife and nature as part of new plans under UK REACH
A little over two years to expend any lead core rifle stuff then? .... wonder if they will include HM forces?
It will happen as we have no shooting organisations that will fight for its continued use.
gerarddwatts
Well-Known Member
Fight? Explain your proposals.
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Leec6.5
Well-Known Member
I’ve been saying when not if for years on the SD!
No one took any notice and now it’s panic stations
Think others have explained the situation in the past and little to add.
Other than depending on the scope of any ban the implications on all shooting are potentially massive.
I think this statement is interesting.
"Now we have left the EU we are able to make our own laws. UK REACH allows decisions to be made on the regulation of chemicals based on the best available scientific evidence, ensuring chemicals remain safely used and managed."
Complete and utter bulls**t of course, as the UK could have decided unilaterally to ban lead at any time as they have just decided to do in DK (phased out by 2023). But of course, Bojo the
can't then dress it up as another win for Brexit. 
He isn't turning out to be much of a friend to the fieldsports community.
"Now we have left the EU we are able to make our own laws. UK REACH allows decisions to be made on the regulation of chemicals based on the best available scientific evidence, ensuring chemicals remain safely used and managed."
Complete and utter bulls**t of course, as the UK could have decided unilaterally to ban lead at any time as they have just decided to do in DK (phased out by 2023). But of course, Bojo the
can't then dress it up as another win for Brexit. He isn't turning out to be much of a friend to the fieldsports community.
Thought it was that wench he favours directing?I think this statement is interesting.
"Now we have left the EU we are able to make our own laws. UK REACH allows decisions to be made on the regulation of chemicals based on the best available scientific evidence, ensuring chemicals remain safely used and managed."
Complete and utter bulls**t of course, as the UK could have decided unilaterally to ban lead at any time as they have just decided to do in DK (phased out by 2023). But of course, Bojo the
He isn't turning out to be much of a friend to the fieldsports community.
gerarddwatts
Well-Known Member
No they haven't. 'They' keep twittering on about 'fights', but offer no suggestions as to how to carry on this 'fight', in between blaming our organisations for not engaging in this mythical 'fight'
Gum bumping.
Of course the implications are massive; we need to be pre-emptive, seize the initiative and get on with developing and improving the alternatives. Or, pretend its not going to happen and end up with nothing.
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