Are UK Outfitters reluctant to deal with British stalkers,

[Tulloch]

People expect to get what they pay for.
If I have travel and accommodation costs plus a few bevies and food, that adds to the cost of the hunting and I have to budget for the full amount.
Ultimately the cost of the stalking can be far less than the ancillary expenses but that doesn’t mean that I like to blank.
So I book a minimum of 2 full days and rattle the clock to take full advantage of every available minute.
I still blank every now and again, but as long as I’m at least seeing what we’re after on the ground I’ve no complaints.
Maybe people are underestimating the necessary investment of time?

That includes your guides time . I bet you could not do my two full days mid summer for the wage I get for it in your normal job .

Average day in mid to late August is 2300 the night before just to get to the grounds for first light, spy, walk and stalk til around midday then come back to the car. Meet up at 3 or 4pm and keep going straight til near o. Midnight. I could be doing the same routine 3 or 4 days straight . Most only make to midday each day or until they have shot one. All for the pricely sum of £450 per day .

My time is worth just as much time as yours.tell me you in your own day job would be happy to work for that include fuel and expenses etc into that price and land rent for the day

 

[Tim.243]

I don't think it's just the attitude over blank days just I think it is attitude in general.

I have a mate that has driver 1200 miles across the States to go shoot a bear and paid for the privilege to do so and it's been blank. Now folk in this country would just not be happy at that.

I have picked up most of my shooting/stalking from grass roots of pigeon shooting which lead to foxing then onto deer.....

From what I read that is far too long a process for people to entertain.....

Looking inwards to posts people make they appear to book a stalk like a yearly MOT.....

That will leave 51 more weeks to get of their a##s and start looking....

In 6 weeks plus wheat barley the heads will be getting fatter which in the past has lead to opportunity's of asking for pigeon shooting which will take you back to the first line in this reply...

Regarding prices I have spoken to a bar manager who said a group of Danish drank £1200.00 worth of booze
on a trip so I say you need to charge them more lol

 

[London Jaeger]

I have picked up most of my shooting/stalking from grass roots of pigeon shooting which lead to foxing then onto deer.....

From what I read that is far too long a process for people to entertain.....

Looking inwards to posts people make they appear to book a stalk like a yearly MOT.....

That will leave 51 more weeks to get of their a##s and start looking....

In 6 weeks plus wheat barley the heads will be getting fatter which in the past has lead to opportunity's of asking for pigeon shooting which will take you back to the first line in this reply...

Regarding prices I have spoken to a bar manager who said a group of Danish drank £1200.00 worth of booze
on a trip so I say you need to charge them more lol

The whole point of guided stalking and booking through an outfitter is to cut straight to the chase. Guided stalking is not for everyone and obviously if you have access to your own permission and have worked hard to secure that then that is of course commendable and is what suits you best.

As an alternative, one can cut straight to the chase and 'pay to play', so to speak. I live and work in London and frankly don't have time to go out foxing and shooting pigeons for farmers to slowly build up to be given stalking rights. What I do have is expendable income so instead I am a member of a hunting club and pay a premium to shoot on their land and go on the trips they organise for my benefit. Is it the most economic way of going stalking? Absolutely not. I have no issue with this however as its what works best for me and I am very happy with the arrangement.

OPs original point is that with guided stalking, there are overheads that need to be met as well as a profit margin to allow a professional stalker to run a sustainable business. European clients are happy to meet those cost where as UK stalkers (who chose to go on guided stalks) are not and will gripe about the price. As such, why would you bother dealing with UK stalkers if they are going to give you a hard time over paying for the services you provide?

 

[Leec6.5]

The problem with deer stalking and gamekeeping is that’s it’s a labour of love.

long hours and poor pay and little in the way of thanks for doing a good job!

I stopped keepering for those exact reasons and never looked back.

if your not getting the U.K. clients you have to take stock and look at the reasons why?

don’t get me wrong I love our continental brethren, open wallets and keep shooting until it’s time to to go home!

the U.K. clientele take a bit more looking after, they need to feel their getting their Money’s worth.

 

[sikamalc]

UK Outfitters is the name of my business, and has been for over 30 plus years. Outfitting is not just guiding clients. A true Outfitter arranges and conducts trips for clients from start to finish. This includes having the ground and species available, arranging their Visitors permits, vehicles to meet them at the airport, fuel, guides, accommodation. In Scotland we have a lodge, and my other half does all the cooking, arranges food, drinks etc. Guides that know what they are doing, and are able to guide professionally, skin and cape off a trophy for a client and boil off the heads. Packing and taxidermy work carried out by us, shipping. In fact the whole trip/trips are covered from start to end. And I dont mean dumping a client in a hotel and picking them up next day. That's not outfitting in my opinion. Its a lot of work and organisation.
Its not just about finding and taking the right animal, its about caring for clients and making sure they are happy, and running a professional business.

For someone who has been in this business a long time I can say that in my case I deal with everyone across the board. A great deal of my clients are UK stalkers. Most want to enjoy an outing or two, take home some venison and fill their freezers. Some come back year after year, some have become good friends.

I used to deal with mostly Americans, but mostly for Scotland. However I have had clients from Finland, Denmark, Sweden, France, Belgium, Russia, Ireland, Holland, China, USA, Canada, South Africa, Spain, Italy and probably a few more others that at the moment I cant think of.

The overseas market has collapsed and I am not seeing anyone booking as yet for this year. However I am holding hope that the USA clients will be able to come over this year to Scotland, who postponed their trip till this year. I also have good friends in Finland, who send me clients every year, and I have had numerous agents promoting me in the States. I will say that many tell the potential client anything to get them to book. Some rip them off with a percentage of 20% to 40 or even 50% on top of my prices. These people I dump straight away. Its a waste of time dealing with them.

I take a lot of clients and have 2 regular professional guides who stalk for me. The UK market for stalking has grown enormously. But some seem to think that its expensive. It can be if you pick the wrong Outfitter/guide. There are loads who are now guiding, some are not even Professionally insured, many use their vehicles, but I bet many are not insured to carry passengers or for business.

This year is booking fast, the vast majority are UK stalkers. I personally think once this Covid things settles down we will have a flood of people wanting to go abroad again to hunt, and the UK will be open for business.

 

[Davee]

I think that too many watch 'stalks' on u-tube and get the impression it's guaranteed that an animal will be found in the ideal position. Very few of these u-tubers are honest enough to say we only saw does (in the buck season) or completely blanked out on the previous 3 days. I have booked a weeks stalking and only found a suitable target at dusk on the last day, but hey ho that's how the cookie crumbles, there was plenty around but wrong species, wrong sex, no safe background, or where did those dog walkers come from? To be frank I felt sorry for the poor guide, his embarrassment was horrendous and he felt the need to apologise after each outing!
But it is ludicrous that it's cheaper for me to drive 200 miles, 2 nights in a B&B, etc for a fallow -including the meat, than it is to get one just up the road with stalk fee, shot fee, missed fee and goodness knows what other fees and the meat was a ridiculously expensive extra, and the company was a darn sight better as well!

 

[sikamalc]

That includes your guides time . I bet you could not do my two full days mid summer for the wage I get for it in your normal job .

Average day in mid to late August is 2300 the night before just to get to the grounds for first light, spy, walk and stalk til around midday then come back to the car. Meet up at 3 or 4pm and keep going straight til near o. Midnight. I could be doing the same routine 3 or 4 days straight . Most only make to midday each day or until they have shot one. All for the pricely sum of £450 per day .

My time is worth just as much time as yours.tell me you in your own day job would be happy to work for that include fuel and expenses etc into that price and land rent for the day

Excuse me for saying so, you need to take a serious look at how your running your business then. Its pointless running a business if you are not happy and not making a living.

 

[Tim.243]

The whole point of guided stalking and booking through an outfitter is to cut straight to the chase. Guided stalking is not for everyone and obviously if you have access to your own permission and have worked hard to secure that then that is of course commendable and is what suits you best.

As an alternative, one can cut straight to the chase and 'pay to play', so to speak. I live and work in London and frankly don't have time to go out foxing and shooting pigeons for farmers to slowly build up to be given stalking rights. What I do have is expendable income so instead I am a member of a hunting club and pay a premium to shoot on their land and go on the trips they organise for my benefit. Is it the most economic way of going stalking? Absolutely not. I have no issue with this however as its what works best for me and I am very happy with the arrangement.

OPs original point is that with guided stalking, there are overheads that need to be met as well as a profit margin to allow a professional stalker to run a sustainable business. European clients are happy to meet those cost where as UK stalkers (who chose to go on guided stalks) are not and will gripe about the price. As such, why would you bother dealing with UK stalkers if they are going to give you a hard time over paying for the services you provide?

The whole point of building up over time is you encounter lots of different situations which from a field craft point which can and will get passed on....

A wealth of knowledge from years of field craft is the person taking the client who has only time to make his wealth....

I take a very wealthy retired Barrister out stalking, he spends around 40+k a year on driven game. He likes to spot and watch with his thermal after borrowing mine. He could bring his rifle or book stalking but said on every occasion what a great couple of hours Tim....
Can I reverse the rolls of spending 40k....no but knocking off a few muntjac or a 100 pigeons with my spaniels is very satisfying....

Each to their own but the values I learnt from my Nan also mum and dad was they never had much but enjoyed what they had.

 

[devon deer stalker]

In all the years I have been a fly fishing instructor/guide and hunting guide, I can honestly say, taken as a whole, it doesn't make a difference where the client is from, they are all like minded people, and accept a fish or deer is never guaranteed, although I will do my best to fulfil their dream.
Price wise, I'm not the cheapest, but I'm not the most expensive either.
But I do accept overseas clients appear to expect to pay more when they visit the UK, I guess in relation to what they pay at home.
Book a fly fishing guide in the UK for the day expect to pay £170 in the USA over £300.
What I won't do is stick a client in a high seat and then charge him £85 to stare at empty fields, I work for the stalk fee, they will do a lot of walking with me (not easy on the hills of Devon for some folks) and if we don't see any it's off to another farm.
I don't have a stalking FB page, neither a website anymore, most of my work is ex clients and word of mouth.

I was once booked for 5 days by a film maker and the Sportsman channel, they had come from Texas, during the Roe Buck rut, first 3 days all we saw was everything out season, I was getting stressed to say the least, but he kept saying 'don't worry we have great footage of your country, deer, and wildlife, if we fail thats hunting', but on the 4th day, 1 buck in the morning and 1 in the evening, and it made a great film, but the thought of them not getting buck and coming all that way would have been a nightmare for me.

Now, armed walks, I'm sure it happens, but not with me, there is evidence all around, and very rarely do we not see a deer.
Then you have the 'sods law' the lucky client, first stalk, bang, deer down.
However, I remember my unluckiest client, 2 stalks, 2 deer, then 6 outings and nothing!
But after the 3rd blank I said no stalk fee until you succeed, that in part is why I get repeat clients, it is how I would like to be treated, fairly.

What does grind with me is the guy who suddenly thinks, I can make some money out of this, no insurance cover and not registered for tax, no wonder they can undercut the existing guides who do it for a living.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Leec6.5]

That includes your guides time . I bet you could not do my two full days mid summer for the wage I get for it in your normal job .

Average day in mid to late August is 2300 the night before just to get to the grounds for first light, spy, walk and stalk til around midday then come back to the car. Meet up at 3 or 4pm and keep going straight til near o. Midnight. I could be doing the same routine 3 or 4 days straight . Most only make to midday each day or until they have shot one. All for the pricely sum of £450 per day .

My time is worth just as much time as yours.tell me you in your own day job would be happy to work for that include fuel and expenses etc into that price and land rent for the day

If your not making money on £450 a day, you need to seriously change either your profession or the way your pricing things.

I don’t know what your charging or how your charging, but something ain’t quite right there somewhere!

 

[Dunwaters]

There would be a difference in attitude between local stalkers and Europe/US. There definitely is over here.
If you’re dealing with “foreigners” then you’re far more likely to be dealing with a bucket list trip, a once in lifetime experience so there’s far less likelihood that they’ll stint on time or quibble over the animal.
A local stalker is far more likely to be just out for the day, doesn’t really want to invest either a lot of time or money because they’ll be going out with someone else next month, a trophy would be nice but they don't want to pay for it and they may or may not be interested in dibs on the carcass. They also know what the average daily local wage is and aren’t too keen to pay what seems to be over the odds and then a tip on top.
A different set of expectations altogether, but you need both types, the foreign trophy hunters are the cream of the business, they subsidise the rest of the year. The home trade should be your bread and butter, but there’s very few of either group to be seen about during the hard graft and short days of the hind seasons.
Unless there’s a sudden explosion in clients and a vast decrease in deer numbers its not going to change anytime soon either.
For the professionals and the estate managers its a business, not a vocation or a hobby, so act as if.

 

[Rhodesianjess]

I have worked as a professional gamekeeper for 30 plus years now. On a previous estate, some 14 season plus ago, the stalking was let. German clients mainly,parties of 4 generally,all shooting from high seats. Mostly muntjac,odd roe. They were paying £400 then,all those years ago, to do so. Plus tipping me, generally very well too.
For the record,why wouldn't an estate go with the money? UK guys wouldn't pay that,so foreign guys came.
By the way,£400 was per deer!

 

[bogtrotter]

Having been a stalker and keeper for a very long time I have had to take out guests or clients a great many times. Most have been great people to be with and we have rubbed along well. There are the odd moaners and always have been but all jobs have that problem. Normally I could always find deer but sometimes you get that one day where you see nothing and you are as disappointed as the guest. This happened the end of this Fallow buck season when I invited a well known lead shooter to come and get a buck.
Well we did see a few does and we covered the whole estate. Luckily he got quite a nice Muntjac from a high seat in the last half hour.
Now last night two of us were out just sitting about to see what might come along. We saw probably 20+ Fallow some being bucks and all stalkable, two foxes, not quick enough on my part and seven Muntjac (not in right positions).
It just shows the variables on a piece of ground that a guide has to put up with.

Spoken by a man that clearly knows the job.

 

[sikamalc]

Spoken by a man that clearly knows the job.

Every day is different. Some just don't understand that

 

[Dunwaters]

That includes your guides time . I bet you could not do my two full days mid summer for the wage I get for it in your normal job .

Average day in mid to late August is 2300 the night before just to get to the grounds for first light, spy, walk and stalk til around midday then come back to the car. Meet up at 3 or 4pm and keep going straight til near o. Midnight. I could be doing the same routine 3 or 4 days straight . Most only make to midday each day or until they have shot one. All for the pricely sum of £450 per day .

My time is worth just as much time as yours.tell me you in your own day job would be happy to work for that include fuel and expenses etc into that price and land rent for the day

Damn right I couldn’t, that’s why I don't try anymore, its friends and relatives only for me from now on.
It may be wrong but being a fishing and shooting guide just isn’t seen as being a “real” job, more an adjunct to a gamekeepers or ghillies normal duties.
Its not right, its not fair but it is what it is.
If being just a stalking or fishing guide was ever a viable career choice there’d be a college degree or a certificate for it and there isn’t, so maybe maybe its just not doable?
You can’t make, or expect to make a years income over a few months and that’s what a lot of professional guides are trying to do, make the majority of your income over short buck and stag seasons. Hinds, with the current price of venison, don't even cover costs, I end up subsidising the cull with income from the stags.
Maybe we do need the wolves after all.

 

[CarlW]

I like all of my clients. Even the horrid ones have something likeable about them.

Despising one's clients is a sure-fire way not to make any money.

 

[sikamalc]

I like all of my clients. Even the horrid ones have something likeable about them.

Despising one's clients is a sure-fire way not to make any money.

But some need a chapter in a book when you retire, under a different name of course

 

[Xenaphon]

The issue over costs in this country is that there is little alternative to paying, especially when you start out. Large land owners realise they can make money leasing out to a guide, smaller land owners often don't actually mind having a 'few' deer around. I guess they get just as much of a thrill at seeing them as we do. I know of a two local populations located very near to urban developments, which will soon be causing RTA's. Chances of a chance of culling them? Zilcho even though I have known one landowner for many years. He and his wife like to see deer in their extended woodland garden and who can blame them?

Whilst in America they have large national forests, accessible for the cost of a licence ~£25? Now it's true that you have to share the land with an unknown number of others and the seasons in some states are very limited, but at least the average Joe can have a few outings without considerable expense. I believe that it's the going out with a reasonable expectation of some success, which is important.

Americans who can afford it, go on guided hunts on private land and they will pay big bucks as for the privilege. Any one used to doing that, is not going to fly the Atlantic to quibble about the cost.

Going out with an experienced stalker is undoubtedly the best way to start, but nothing beats the thrill of doing all on your own. Getting to that experience in this country is the tricky part.

 

[levigsp]

Look I know this is going to cause a bit of an argument on here but here goes.

So over the last couple of months I have been speaking to quite a few Outfitters like myself, mainly because expanding business and clientele contacts is an ongoing process and usually many of us work together in different aspects of our sport due the different species of deer etc we may have available. Time and time again the conversation comes up over whether British stalkers are worth dealing with.

It is true that shooters in the UK demand more for less, the idea of many shooters in the UK is that stalking should be free and in that case the jobs that Outfitters do are not real jobs.

The conversation over price always comes up and stokes massive debate but frankly it does not matter what the price is there will always be complaints.

I have spoke to many Outfitters now who just refuse to deal with the UK shooting community, "it's just not worth the hassle" is what many of them say. I myself predominantly have British clients but even then on occasion I question why I bother.

It's a hard enough time for shooters in the UK but in many cases British shooters are their own worst enemies.

I have often heard of, and this has happened to me also, UK stalkers who have went out and failed to pull the trigger then go on social media afterwards and blast that Outfitter for them failing to provide a deer, you just don't get that from the EU or the American hunters. Many of our peers in our sport have forgotten what hunting is all about, truly they have and are very keen on turning to places like this forum and social media to have a go. I don't think they realise how much harm they are doing to their own sport.

I have message after message of endorsements saved in my phone from my overseas clients, and many were booked to return last year but Covid caused them to cancel. Likewise I have some from my UK clients. I often find that those who pay less shout the loudest.

So is it any wonder why Outfitters just do not want to deal with the UK stalking community and often over price for that reason?

Look I get it, there is an argument that we should not let so called "rogue" outfitters get away with ripping people off but it is often the lowest priced outfitters that get the most grief and it's not always the case that you only get what you paid for as sometimes their service offers far more than those with the increased price. It's actually more down to the clientele that goes with them.

I have been told time and time again that my prices attract the wrong people because I charge too low.
Are those that say that right?
Does that mean, me offering what I think is a price that the average person can afford is actually doing more harm than good to the industry because of the people it attracts?

If that's the case then I will be taking a different tact in future as the prices I currently charge make me literally nothing more than my fuel costs with a bit on top.

If this is the model though of the future does that mean the attitudes of UK stalkers have actually priced themselves out of being able to stalk?

You are a fickle lot I have to say that.

More and more people are starting up stalking and shooting in general, more and more require land to shoot over and there is less and less opportunities available.

It's all something to think about

Firstly, your prices are not as low as some, but that's another debate.
Why would someone travel from lets say Nottingham to stalk in the north highlands if they can get similar if not better stalking closer to home?
I think I have good stalking, if I go out for a red or sika I normally get one or client does, but this pails at the side of southern stalking.
When I go south to stalk, i am spoiled for choice whatever species i go for, Munti, Roe, Fallow, Sika or Reds I could take multiple animals a day and every day, unlike Scotland where gales and storms might well stop play!.
So the only clients are those that want a true wild experience.
Then the costs rear there ugly heads. I will try and put this in a manner that's easy to understand, I recently asked for a price list for stalking in England for roe.
The friend who soured the price for me is a life long starker and has and still does all over the world. he warned me the pricelist would make my eyes water.
£100 per outing[none hunter £40] 500+grams is £1600 + 17 per gram over and then all the other charges on top. Now My friend would never pay that as he could get far more for his cash abroad! I could not afford that full stop and even if i could i wouldn't. Its robbery!
The person I sent the price to is Swedish, his reply was " it seams quite reasonable!"., the reason is simple, their wages are over twice UK for similar jobs! And the UK has far more low paid workers!.
So to me it makes sense why UK stalkers "want it for nothing"
However I will add that the average UK client is wanting it easy, and often expects too much without putting in the effort, whereas clients from elsewhere will go to the ends of the earth. I have over the years had clients out from SA, Australia, USA, Asia, Europe various countries and all will work hard for their gains. i found the UK clients that didn't take it for granted, are the ones that rebook year after year etc.

 

[zambezi]

nothing beats the thrill of doing all on your own. Getting to that experience in this country is the tricky part.

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