Are UK Outfitters reluctant to deal with British stalkers,

[User00025]

I like all of my clients. Even the horrid ones have something likeable about them.

Despising one's clients is a sure-fire way not to make any money.

I'm getting more and more worried about you.

 

[Kalahari]

I just wonder if one "problem" is the frequent statements that the UK is being over run with deer. People might then think if there are an excess of them why is shooting them so expensive, or if there are so many of them why didn't I see one on three consecutive stalks? I know in my case it is because I am rubbish but I guess some people might think they are paying for an expensive walk.

David.

 

[Silvius]

I would imagine that overseas clients are generally good clients. To leave your own country and fly abroad to hunt you have to be both dedicated and solvent. Probably you are quite expereinced with guides too and so will be sure to make yourself a good client as then the experience is likely to be smooth for you in return. For every one such client that approaches form abroad, there are going to be a dozen locals who are not as experienced or as solvent and some of their expectations may be unrealistic while they may also not appreciate that some purchases are not as certain as a click on Amazon Prime.

In my job I find that the worst client is a fairly young professional type who has a large mortgage and a successful career. He is used to pushing hard to get somewhere and trying to cut costs. He has no idea that I am going to do my best for him whether or not he pushes, that I have never attempted to overcharge anyone and that I am likely to regard him as a client to avoid if he tries to grind me down on cost or pushes me too hard as I have more than enough clients already. The best client, however, is a successful man with no debt, who has hired a lot of people already in life and knows that if he is friendly and hires a good man for the going rate, the rest will fall into place sooner or later and probably sooner.

 

[Dunwaters]

Despising one's clients is a sure-fire way not to make any money.

I used to get the most unholy satisfaction from running the more despicable cretins through the deepest, foulest and impassible Sitka thickets imaginable.
2 of them came back for a repeat, bloody masochists.

 

[bogtrotter]

There would be a difference in attitude between local stalkers and Europe/US. There definitely is over here.
If you’re dealing with “foreigners” then you’re far more likely to be dealing with a bucket list trip, a once in lifetime experience so there’s far less likelihood that they’ll stint on time or quibble over the animal.
A local stalker is far more likely to be just out for the day, doesn’t really want to invest either a lot of time or money because they’ll be going out with someone else next month, a trophy would be nice but they don't want to pay for it and they may or may not be interested in dibs on the carcass. They also know what the average daily local wage is and aren’t too keen to pay what seems to be over the odds and then a tip on top.
A different set of expectations altogether, but you need both types, the foreign trophy hunters are the cream of the business, they subsidise the rest of the year. The home trade should be your bread and butter, but there’s very few of either group to be seen about during the hard graft and short days of the hind seasons.
Unless there’s a sudden explosion in clients and a vast decrease in deer numbers its not going to change anytime soon either.
For the professionals and the estate managers its a business, not a vocation or a hobby, so act as if.

Not necessarily so 99.9% of my clients are foreign and I have the same people year on year one of my regulars has been stalking with me for thirty years most clients probably twenty years .
In general they are not trophy hunters though they won't refuse one if they get the opportunity they just want to stalk and
they love Scotland.
Always makes me smile when they are arriving or departing on both occassions you can hear the bagpipe music before they have arrived and for some time after they have departed they drive from Europe and the music is played at full
volume when they are getting close to their destination.

 

[pop1]

Back before Covid arrived, I arranged to go on a stalk with a member on here. I had not shot a deer before and I really wanted to get into stalking. I am not new to shooting, I have rimfires and I have served in the military, so I understand how things work and have a good understanding of gun safety.

We agreed on a price, and when the day arrived I headed off, keen to learn from this experience. I never shot a deer. We saw deer, but not the right gender. We looked but it was not to happen. Was I disappointed? Well yes, I was. Did I blame the guy I arranged this with? No, of course not. Did I enjoy the experience? Yes I did and I will arrange a paid stalk again in the future, and one day I will get my first deer.

Could still be an awesome day. If the stalker was good craic and you learnt a lot on your trip all is not lost. You will probably learn more from stalking deer you aren’t going to shoot as you spend more time observing them than thinking where can I get a safe shot from. Hope you persevere and get that elusive first beast!!

 

[User00030]

You can only drop the price so much until the job becomes no longer viable, many of us are already working at that level

Yep plus in Scotland we have the sporting tax. If we keep pushing estates to lower their stalking costs then it will come to a point where it’s cheaper just to employ someone to cull the deer and be done with the additional overheads. Then you will have no stalking

 

[Musketeer]

Could still be an awesome day. If the stalker was good craic and you learnt a lot on your trip all is not lost. You will probably learn more from stalking deer you aren’t going to shoot as you spend more time observing them than thinking where can I get a safe shot from. Hope you persevere and get that elusive first beast!!

It was a very enjoyable afternoon and even without the deer in the bag, I did learn a lot.

 

[JabaliHunter]

A huge portion of the UK working population has been underpaid compared to European and US workers in my experience since the 1960s and I am sure this was always the way. That's now out of the way.
The culture of not paying much for anything or "nicking" (builders bunce for copper piping for example) is rife, I can leave my house door unlocked here in Germany and nowt will happen 99.9999% of the time we found a twenty Euro note on the supermarket floor last week and handed it into the cashier. Why then do the golfers truck up and pay their high charges? perhaps because they do get their round of walking in. Shooting clients, me being one sometimes, can get disappointed as I was on an Anglia area pigeon guiding trip for example, so I did not go back after the second duck 3 day jobby. He still wanted his full grist even though he had not presented any special fields of grey to me.
It is a growing sport of stalking but the land is not growing with it so the poor folk can whistle, pure economics.

You may have a valid point, although I would point out that average real terms wages in the US were stagnant or declining for about 2 decades before the financial crash, which was one of the key drivers of rising housing debt, which in turn drove the crash.

But another factor in the U.K. is the high cost of living, especially factoring in housing costs (purchase and rental) which means that average disposable incomes are relatively low compared to some countries.

That may be a factor in attitudes to cost, but shouldn’t be a factor in attitudes to sport

 

[patrickt]

Look I know this is going to cause a bit of an argument on here but here goes.

So over the last couple of months I have been speaking to quite a few Outfitters like myself, mainly because expanding business and clientele contacts is an ongoing process and usually many of us work together in different aspects of our sport due the different species of deer etc we may have available. Time and time again the conversation comes up over whether British stalkers are worth dealing with.

It is true that shooters in the UK demand more for less, the idea of many shooters in the UK is that stalking should be free and in that case the jobs that Outfitters do are not real jobs.

The conversation over price always comes up and stokes massive debate but frankly it does not matter what the price is there will always be complaints.

I have spoke to many Outfitters now who just refuse to deal with the UK shooting community, "it's just not worth the hassle" is what many of them say. I myself predominantly have British clients but even then on occasion I question why I bother.

It's a hard enough time for shooters in the UK but in many cases British shooters are their own worst enemies.

I have often heard of, and this has happened to me also, UK stalkers who have went out and failed to pull the trigger then go on social media afterwards and blast that Outfitter for them failing to provide a deer, you just don't get that from the EU or the American hunters. Many of our peers in our sport have forgotten what hunting is all about, truly they have and are very keen on turning to places like this forum and social media to have a go. I don't think they realise how much harm they are doing to their own sport.

I have message after message of endorsements saved in my phone from my overseas clients, and many were booked to return last year but Covid caused them to cancel. Likewise I have some from my UK clients. I often find that those who pay less shout the loudest.

So is it any wonder why Outfitters just do not want to deal with the UK stalking community and often over price for that reason?

Look I get it, there is an argument that we should not let so called "rogue" outfitters get away with ripping people off but it is often the lowest priced outfitters that get the most grief and it's not always the case that you only get what you paid for as sometimes their service offers far more than those with the increased price. It's actually more down to the clientele that goes with them.

I have been told time and time again that my prices attract the wrong people because I charge too low.
Are those that say that right?
Does that mean, me offering what I think is a price that the average person can afford is actually doing more harm than good to the industry because of the people it attracts?

If that's the case then I will be taking a different tact in future as the prices I currently charge make me literally nothing more than my fuel costs with a bit on top.

If this is the model though of the future does that mean the attitudes of UK stalkers have actually priced themselves out of being able to stalk?

You are a fickle lot I have to say that.

More and more people are starting up stalking and shooting in general, more and more require land to shoot over and there is less and less opportunities available.

It's all something to think about

Why oh...... Why do you call yourself an Outfitter!!, in the UK it was used to describe a men's clothiers services, and the like, why do we have to describe anything related to shooting, stalking Et Al as an Outfitting. Just because the Yanks describe THEIR services as "OUTFITTERS" why do we have to follow suit???

Patrick

 

[Leec6.5]

Why oh...... Why do you call yourself an Outfitter!!, in the UK it was used to describe a men's clothiers services, and the like, why do we have to describe anything related to shooting, stalking Et Al as an Outfitting. Just because the Yanks describe THEIR services as "OUTFITTERS" why do we have to follow suit???

Patrick

That’s a simple question to answer!

an outfitter is internationally recognised as a person or company that arranges hunting trips.

you want foreign clients you advertise as an outfitter

 

[Cottis]

That’s a simple question to answer!

an outfitter is internationally recognised as a person or company that arranges hunting trips.

you want foreign clients you advertise as an outfitter

Make sense seeing as the OP clearly doesn't want natives

 

[patrickt]

That’s a simple question to answer!

an outfitter is internationally recognised as a person or company that arranges hunting trips.

you want foreign clients you advertise as an outfitter

I feel sure that you are going to refer me to the particular article that applies to your description!!

Patrick

 

[bogtrotter]

Why oh...... Why do you call yourself an Outfitter!!, in the UK it was used to describe a men's clothiers services, and the like, why do we have to describe anything related to shooting, stalking Et Al as an Outfitting. Just because the Yanks describe THEIR services as "OUTFITTERS" why do we have to follow suit???

Patrick

What we used to call a sporting agent, but the term Outfitter is more recognisable to foreign clients.

 

[patrickt]

What we used to call a sporting agent, but the term Outfitter is more recognisable to foreign clients.

BT, don't you think that "Sporting Agent" is more befitting, more appropriate, more noble,........and more British", next we will be calling our arses fanny's. Is that phrase more recognisable as well!!!

Patrick

 

[nick.308]

Usually in most walks of life if you pay a fee and you get the goods. With hunting your paying for the "opportunity" . I think the problem here is managing clients expectations. So from the outset the deal should be its £££ per day and the last 5 out of 10 stalks were successful. That way the client knows his odds are 50:50 and a guaranteed shot is not part of the deal.
If an out fitter just names a price and the hunter doesnt even get a shot then they are bound to be miffed??
I suspect theres loads of UK complainers because they might have saved all year to pay for one day and it turns out a blank. I know its part of the game to have blank days and theres no need to complain but thats why I prefer syndicates because I can always try again another day

Also I enjoy doing the stalk myself not just following someones backside with little view. Following a stalker takes all the skill and excitement out it for me.

 

[Dunwaters]

Why oh...... Why do you call yourself an Outfitter!!, in the UK it was used to describe a men's clothiers services, and the like, why do we have to describe anything related to shooting, stalking Et Al as an Outfitting. Just because the Yanks describe THEIR services as "OUTFITTERS" why do we have to follow suit???

Patrick

The yanks actually are outfitters in many cases. They supply food, accommodation and transport as well as a full guide service .
Maybe that’s the answer to the low profit margins, be a one stop shop?

 

[HappyHunter]

Mentioned above, but those travelling abroad whether a one off bucket list kind of deal or pursuing a passion / hobby are likely to have carefully considered and understood the costs involved whilst obviously being in the position to afford it.

In addition to the above, seeing as their pursuit has carried them abroad they are likely committed and understanding in the reality of a hunt.

Be interesting to hear from a US / European outfitter's perspective and how their foreign clientele measure up to domestic clients.

I'd imagine Brits travelling and seeking similar experiences abroad are as mentioned in my first paragraph and perhaps their locals are tight arsed!

HH

 

[Home Loader]

I have over the years. Guided for clients from all over the world, some have been on behalf of various estates others in behalf of outfitters on my grounds. My experiences are. On the whole the foreign clients, while not being without the odd problem client, mostly are far more understanding of the nature of the operation and appreciate your time and knowledge, if you blank but they have seen some wildlife and you can hold your own when discussing the flora and fauna around them, they are generally happy.
The home grown stalker, can be the most self centered I have the gear and the certificates and no idea but you the professional are wrong, the number of times I've been told how experienced someone is only to see the wheels fall off as the stalk progresses. Or I have been told we are to expensive by someone with all the brand name kit along with the range rover, who then offer the estate a large wad and say they can do it better than we can! Or the behaviour that really gets my goat really pushy to get a shot but zero interest in anything after pulling the trigger.
All that said not all home grown stalkers are horrendous.

 

[Shabz]

Look I know this is going to cause a bit of an argument on here but here goes.

So over the last couple of months I have been speaking to quite a few Outfitters like myself, mainly because expanding business and clientele contacts is an ongoing process and usually many of us work together in different aspects of our sport due the different species of deer etc we may have available. Time and time again the conversation comes up over whether British stalkers are worth dealing with.

It is true that shooters in the UK demand more for less, the idea of many shooters in the UK is that stalking should be free and in that case the jobs that Outfitters do are not real jobs.

The conversation over price always comes up and stokes massive debate but frankly it does not matter what the price is there will always be complaints.

I have spoke to many Outfitters now who just refuse to deal with the UK shooting community, "it's just not worth the hassle" is what many of them say. I myself predominantly have British clients but even then on occasion I question why I bother.

It's a hard enough time for shooters in the UK but in many cases British shooters are their own worst enemies.

I have often heard of, and this has happened to me also, UK stalkers who have went out and failed to pull the trigger then go on social media afterwards and blast that Outfitter for them failing to provide a deer, you just don't get that from the EU or the American hunters. Many of our peers in our sport have forgotten what hunting is all about, truly they have and are very keen on turning to places like this forum and social media to have a go. I don't think they realise how much harm they are doing to their own sport.

I have message after message of endorsements saved in my phone from my overseas clients, and many were booked to return last year but Covid caused them to cancel. Likewise I have some from my UK clients. I often find that those who pay less shout the loudest.

So is it any wonder why Outfitters just do not want to deal with the UK stalking community and often over price for that reason?

Look I get it, there is an argument that we should not let so called "rogue" outfitters get away with ripping people off but it is often the lowest priced outfitters that get the most grief and it's not always the case that you only get what you paid for as sometimes their service offers far more than those with the increased price. It's actually more down to the clientele that goes with them.

I have been told time and time again that my prices attract the wrong people because I charge too low.
Are those that say that right?
Does that mean, me offering what I think is a price that the average person can afford is actually doing more harm than good to the industry because of the people it attracts?

If that's the case then I will be taking a different tact in future as the prices I currently charge make me literally nothing more than my fuel costs with a bit on top.

If this is the model though of the future does that mean the attitudes of UK stalkers have actually priced themselves out of being able to stalk?

You are a fickle lot I have to say that.

More and more people are starting up stalking and shooting in general, more and more require land to shoot over and there is less and less opportunities available.

It's all something to think about

I think you should sack it off and be a lorry driver or something? Everything I’ve ever seen you write has been about what a crap living you make from it. Try and pass your ground onto some decent local lads.