Hopefully this coming hind season I will have some data to input... Taking the plunge, just to see if they work for me!
Comparing Terminal Performance of Non-lead/Copper Bullets on UK Deer
- Thread starter User00040
- Start date
Offside shoulder exit wound
Deer Species: Roe
Sex: Male
Larder Weight (head, legs and internal organs removed): 13kg
Rifle Calibre/Chambering: .270 Winchester
Ammunition Type: Factory- Sako Powerhead II
Bullet manufacturer: Barnes
Bullet model: TTSX
Bullet weight: 110 grains
Muzzle Velocity (if known): 3,180 fps
Barrel Length: 20 inches
Barrel Twist rate (if known): 1-10"
Shot distance: 100 meters, estimate and later ranged
Shot placement: High shoulder, Broadside
Distance travelled: 3 meters (rolled downhill)
Tracking dog required? No
Deer was spotted coming up the opposite bank, was able to take a quick supported shot and the buck rolled back down the bank into a small gulley. Bullet performed as expected at this range, very quick kill when the high shoulder shot placement is used.
Entry wound:
Exit wound
Deer Species: Roe
Sex: Male
Larder Weight (head, legs and internal organs removed): 14kg
Rifle Calibre/Chambering: .270 Winchester
Ammunition Type: Factory- Sako Powerhead II
Bullet manufacturer: Barnes
Bullet model: TTSX
Bullet weight: 110 grains
Muzzle Velocity (if known): 3,180 fps
Barrel Length: 20 inches
Barrel Twist rate (if known): 1-10"
Shot distance: 150 meters,estimated
Shot placement: Just behind front shoulder, quartering away slightly
Distance travelled: 5 meters
Tracking dog required? No
Deer shot slightly behind the front shoulder due to the angle at which it presented. Bullet performed as expected, doing well when hitting bone on entry and exit. Deer stumbled down the bank and expired quickly.
Just an initial observation of the gralloch from the pictures - it does seem like the real almost explosive damage you get with lead is less present with copper bullets. Most of the time when I gralloch a deer the lungs are just mush.
The copper clearly did the job but just an observation. Makes me wonder if that contributes to the higher number of runners as compared to lead perhaps...?
The copper clearly did the job but just an observation. Makes me wonder if that contributes to the higher number of runners as compared to lead perhaps...?
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
The copper and lead do work in different ways however, and to compare them based on looking for a similar damage is maybe unfair?
It's well recorded that the copper causes temporary cavitation as well as its permanent cavitation which is what you're looking at, whereas the lead is using fragmentation causing mainly permanent cavitation to achieve the desired effect, hence the lead looks messier in the gralloch.
If we are to form a proper idea of what will work and what won't I believe that we have to get away from trying to draw a conclusion of the idea of 'copper will cause more runners' off a few photographs without having the data to back it up?
By the way you speak I'm guessing that you yourself are still using lead, therefore would you be willing to contribute some data on deer you shoot with the lead bullets so we may have an evidence based look at both sides and therefore be able to compare and contrast them without bias and let the data show us what is truly going on?
On smaller deer I'd still prefer to use a lead based 'cup and core' bullets.
I want good expansion (but not explosive) on entry, and arguably the bullet not exiting the carcass would be proof that the energy has been dumped in the first half.
Then again, I'm not sure if always having two holes (taking account for good placement,entry and exit) forward of the diaphragm is going to be a good or bad killing mechanism.
Personally don't trust blanket data. Some 'zero meter bang-flops' in the head/neck/spine could have been achieved even with an FMJ bullet, so why count that?
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Agreed about head and neck, however they are part of a complete data set, once the data is collected you can sort out for just chest shots etc, as well as sorting for bullet type, calibre etc.
I agree in sentiment but would much rather compare animals which are shot approximately 'broadside'.
I've had quite a few animals drop dead on the spot from a front facing neck/chest/head shot but won't be putting those up on here.
@Yorric mentions the BDS encourage a slightly different aim point vs. the DSC standard. Maybe we can compare the effectiveness of these aim points with some photographic evidence.
@takbok sometimes puts up pics of skinned deer shot with copper and I would prefer to show this, but unfortunately am not able to.
I suspect non-lead alternative development will not suddenly offer us lead-equal performance, and thus, I’m going to hazard a guess the change to bring game down in an equally effective and predictable manner will lie in bullet placement being moved from the usual heart/lung, to front/high shoulder (autonomic plexus) to compensate for the lack of temporary cavitation and hydrostatic shock effect.
plenty of testing done here. This was the first lot, there is more but you can use your search engines to find it.
basically the manufactures gave them a load of ammo in different Calibers and said, go shoot animals and check for yourselves.
www.fieldsportschannel.tv
basically the manufactures gave them a load of ammo in different Calibers and said, go shoot animals and check for yourselves.
On Test: best copper bullets for deer
Firearms expert Andrew Venables has a guilty secret (innocent secret?). He prefers copper bullets to lead bullets. In this film, he puts copper bullets through their paces on a range, showing how they win on both accuracy and fillability. Thanks to Tim Pilbeam for letting us use his range. Have...
www.fieldsportschannel.tv
Just to clarify, It is BDS Highlands Branch that is keen to move the aiming point on the DMQ target down (about 20mm) to put the centre of a 4" circle right on top of the heart.
Note that not all DMQ targets are the same. and the latest overlay targets and full deer targets don't match the older ones - Just to add confusion.
Basically what Highlands say is that the kill aiming point should be in line with the centreline of the front leg and a third of the way up the body.
It will be an interesting project trying to get DMQ to accept this as the proper centre for their shooting tests and modify the targets to reflect it.
Ian
plenty of testing done here. This was the first lot, there is more but you can use your search engines to find it.
basically the manufactures gave them a load of ammo in different Calibers and said, go shoot animals and check for yourselves.
On Test: best copper bullets for deer
Firearms expert Andrew Venables has a guilty secret (innocent secret?). He prefers copper bullets to lead bullets. In this film, he puts copper bullets through their paces on a range, showing how they win on both accuracy and fillability. Thanks to Tim Pilbeam for letting us use his range. Have...
Difference is that I'm actually showing you the results (although somewhat selectively) but most importantly I've nothing to gain. My work ammo is free too.
I have been very pleased with the performance of the Fox 130gn .308 ammunition that I have bought from Ed at Edinburgh Rifles.
Fair to say that I have noticed that the reaction to the shot with Red Hinds on the hill is different and all the roe that I have shot have dropped as if hit by lightning.
We are going to have to switch to non-toxic very soon & I have no problem with it.
Fair to say that I have noticed that the reaction to the shot with Red Hinds on the hill is different and all the roe that I have shot have dropped as if hit by lightning.
We are going to have to switch to non-toxic very soon & I have no problem with it.
It depends where you put the base line. LOL.Picturing that in my head, I think that's a bit low...
It does follow the guidance I was given when I started by my mentor , a professional who had shot thousands of deer and in my early BDS training.
Ian
Too low.
A broadside point of impact 2” low and 2” forward (still technically on the circle) will pass under the lungs / aorta / pulmonary plumbing, in front of the heart. The humerus is also likely to be hit, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how the bullet behaves. Any further in this direction and you have a strike in the brisket.
It’s important to understand whether or not this revised guidance is about prioritising clean killing, or maximising shoulder meat recovery, or a compromise between the two.
If you want to maximise clean killing, then front line of foreleg, on or just below the midline of the animal.
Our favourite TV hunting show on our equivalent of the BBC (NZ Hunter Adventures) recently featured three generations of the same family hunting reds and fallow. The instruction to the grandson was spot on. He was bowling full sized reds with a .243 Win at 150-200m, with pinpoint placement in the shoulder. Bang. Flop.
He is 8 years old.
Do they by any chance put it online and if so, got a link?
TVNZ uses an app for mobile devices, or a browser. All programming has geo restriction, so you need a VPN, and even then you can run into problems as my one cousin in the Midlands couldn’t get it to work on the app.
At some point down the line, they’ll go onto YouTube, but that’s probably a couple of years away.
At some point down the line, they’ll go onto YouTube, but that’s probably a couple of years away.
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