dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
All helps mate, I'm new to the centerfire world
Maximum point blank range
- Thread starter dawnbreaker
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dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input man all is appreciated as I'm new to the world of centerfire
If you come from the rim fire (or even air rifle ) world then it is all the same
dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
Rimfire, only been shooting a yr but have shot loads
It certainly falls away from the imaginary extended bore axis. Usually though, I think the bullet is actually going up after leaving the muzzle, is it not?
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
On a scoped rifle:-
When you compare the line of sight to the barrel, it is the case that the barrel is pointing up (in relation to the scope).
You are in fact, "lobbing" rounds to the target.
That said, gravity still kicks in the moment the bullet exits the barrel.
dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
Yeah I've learnt a lot over the last Yr shooting it currently shooting 2" groups with my 223 at just over 100m off quad sticks using hornady frontiers 55gr probably not the best rnd but cheap and im rattling through them getting a feel for the gun etc
Sako75Hunter
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested to read this (if it's on SD?), any chance of a link if it is @caberslash ?
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
If you’ll take a bit of advice, get off the sticks and practice with the impromptu rests that nature provides. I’m wore out with scrotes that shoot off sticks when there’s a perfectly good hump of mud or bit of a rock that’d give you near benchrest stability.
Safe shooting.
dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
Do you use a bipod or a bag or just the humps off mud genuine question no sarcasm
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I use bipods and bags on the range, on walk about I use sticks and whatever else is available. Up to last week I had a single thumb stick, I now have a nice set of quads, but I still drop them and crawl if I have to.Do you use a bipod or a bag or just the humps off mud genuine question no sarcasm
I’m too old and stubborn to change now.
dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
Lol, I'm not exclusively quads ill use stone walls , gates etc if out with others on the lamp, but after switching from the lamp to pard it gives me more time to use quads on foxes and rabbits, I hunt solo 99% of the time so pard has been a game changer for me
As has been noted already, 1 or 2 inches high at a hundred is not MPBR.
Following the MPBR process - i.e. the arithmetic part - is an interesting exercise. It does of course require you to have a accurate knowledge of your ballistics, it is not something you can work out accurately with a guesstimate. You need to have triple checked your muzzle velocity and BC at range with drop tests.
There are two fundamental problems with MPBR.
Firstly, MPBR conflicts with the “aim small, miss small” principle. The MPBR principal works on a “near enough is good enough basis” which can have major implications when working close to your calculated maximum range. Because the principal assumes that you are going to aim at the same point on the animal irrespective of range, there is in my experience an increased risk of the bullet striking slightly too low. I’ve done this myself using the MPBR principle with my .308 Win; after years of holding over using a BDC reticle, I tried MPBR and found that I didn’t like the lack of fine control on point of impact.
On one occasion I remember very clearly I shot a red stag at 255yds (the MPBR is 257yds), using a Zeiss duplex reticle on a high quality scope that I decided I needed for improved lowlight transmission. Although I was 100% confident I had the crosshair right on the centre of the 6” vitals zone, the 3½” drop was enough to break the leg and pass through the top of the brisket, underneath the hilar zone. The stag run on 3 legs about 30 yards before starting to go round in circles, and needed a second shot. At that range, that is a fail for me.
I’ve discussed MPBR with guys who have selected some unrealistically large target diameters. I do not agree that a red deer has a 12 inch vital zone! What this does is unnecessarily risk bullets impacting far too low, as it stretches the maximum range in the calculation too far in my opinion.
And this brings us onto the effect of wind. At the maximum range calculated by MPBR, you obviously have to take into account wind, which if you are holding for wind means you are inevitably starting to wander away from the centre of your target circle, which can be quite disconcerting for guys who haven’t maybe got the confidence or experience. I’m sure this is one of the reasons that we see too many shots striking too far back on the animal. All of this is far too imprecise for me.
So after a process, I dropped MPBR and reverted to the aim small, miss small concept. Simply put, aim small, miss small is where you compensate for the bullet drop with a calculated (or well considered) hold over at a very specific part of the deer, using a calibrated BDC reticle. (By calibrated I mean that at a specific magnification the reticle subtensions align with nice round numbers in sensible increments like 50m.) If you use ballistic turrets, then you dial in the elevation required.
Aim small, miss small is in my experience considerably more likely to result in the instant bang flop that we crave, out to ranges that some of you guys get all touchy about. Aim small, miss small forces you to take into account all the factors that MPBR seeks to dumb down - animal position (angle), anatomy, wind, drop. Only short-range snap shooting with powerful rifles can really get away with ignoring this stuff.
The second problem with MPBR is that it requires you to zero your rifle at a far greater range than most people are capable of doing. The constraint they usually run into is access to ground that is able to give them a clear, level line of sight. Even here, a nice level 200m can be devilishly hard to come across because of the topography, At least in a place where you can easily walk backwards and forwards to your target. This makes it difficult for a quick field zero check. On my .300 WSM, the MPBR far zero is 243m - it is impractical.
You also have the problem of what kind of groups you are capable of shooting at that range. By the time you’re out to 200-240m, you’ve got wind effects, your shaky hold, and all sorts of other age related ailments to take into consideration. For guys who are used to shooting at 100m at the range, trying to accept the spread at over 200m for a zero can be quite a challenge.
Of course the bullet passes through the line of sight twice, and the “far zero” is the one that we really want to use, as it will far better reflect where the bullet is going to go afterwards. The “near zero” is usually something like 30m in front of you, and in my experience very short zero ranges are useless for longer range shooting. I’ve tried it and consigned it to the rubbish bin.
I will vary my zero distance slightly for each particular rifle / scope combination to best match the ballistics to the reticle so I get those nice round subtension holdovers. On most decent BDC reticles they come closely calibrated to most common cartridges assuming either a 100 yard or 200 yard zero. So my zero ranges are usually very close to one or the other.
So that’s my take on MPBR. It is a sound principle for most close range stalking as long as you are fully aware of the potential for missing the vitals low, when working close to the maximum range, and the need to have access to a place where you can confidently zero your rifle at the calculated distance. But for me I am shooting close to or beyond the maximum range probably 50% of the time.
My vote will be for aim small, miss small every time as it promotes better precision, with consequent improved probability of instant kills.
Following the MPBR process - i.e. the arithmetic part - is an interesting exercise. It does of course require you to have a accurate knowledge of your ballistics, it is not something you can work out accurately with a guesstimate. You need to have triple checked your muzzle velocity and BC at range with drop tests.
There are two fundamental problems with MPBR.
Firstly, MPBR conflicts with the “aim small, miss small” principle. The MPBR principal works on a “near enough is good enough basis” which can have major implications when working close to your calculated maximum range. Because the principal assumes that you are going to aim at the same point on the animal irrespective of range, there is in my experience an increased risk of the bullet striking slightly too low. I’ve done this myself using the MPBR principle with my .308 Win; after years of holding over using a BDC reticle, I tried MPBR and found that I didn’t like the lack of fine control on point of impact.
On one occasion I remember very clearly I shot a red stag at 255yds (the MPBR is 257yds), using a Zeiss duplex reticle on a high quality scope that I decided I needed for improved lowlight transmission. Although I was 100% confident I had the crosshair right on the centre of the 6” vitals zone, the 3½” drop was enough to break the leg and pass through the top of the brisket, underneath the hilar zone. The stag run on 3 legs about 30 yards before starting to go round in circles, and needed a second shot. At that range, that is a fail for me.
I’ve discussed MPBR with guys who have selected some unrealistically large target diameters. I do not agree that a red deer has a 12 inch vital zone! What this does is unnecessarily risk bullets impacting far too low, as it stretches the maximum range in the calculation too far in my opinion.
And this brings us onto the effect of wind. At the maximum range calculated by MPBR, you obviously have to take into account wind, which if you are holding for wind means you are inevitably starting to wander away from the centre of your target circle, which can be quite disconcerting for guys who haven’t maybe got the confidence or experience. I’m sure this is one of the reasons that we see too many shots striking too far back on the animal. All of this is far too imprecise for me.
So after a process, I dropped MPBR and reverted to the aim small, miss small concept. Simply put, aim small, miss small is where you compensate for the bullet drop with a calculated (or well considered) hold over at a very specific part of the deer, using a calibrated BDC reticle. (By calibrated I mean that at a specific magnification the reticle subtensions align with nice round numbers in sensible increments like 50m.) If you use ballistic turrets, then you dial in the elevation required.
Aim small, miss small is in my experience considerably more likely to result in the instant bang flop that we crave, out to ranges that some of you guys get all touchy about. Aim small, miss small forces you to take into account all the factors that MPBR seeks to dumb down - animal position (angle), anatomy, wind, drop. Only short-range snap shooting with powerful rifles can really get away with ignoring this stuff.
The second problem with MPBR is that it requires you to zero your rifle at a far greater range than most people are capable of doing. The constraint they usually run into is access to ground that is able to give them a clear, level line of sight. Even here, a nice level 200m can be devilishly hard to come across because of the topography, At least in a place where you can easily walk backwards and forwards to your target. This makes it difficult for a quick field zero check. On my .300 WSM, the MPBR far zero is 243m - it is impractical.
You also have the problem of what kind of groups you are capable of shooting at that range. By the time you’re out to 200-240m, you’ve got wind effects, your shaky hold, and all sorts of other age related ailments to take into consideration. For guys who are used to shooting at 100m at the range, trying to accept the spread at over 200m for a zero can be quite a challenge.
Of course the bullet passes through the line of sight twice, and the “far zero” is the one that we really want to use, as it will far better reflect where the bullet is going to go afterwards. The “near zero” is usually something like 30m in front of you, and in my experience very short zero ranges are useless for longer range shooting. I’ve tried it and consigned it to the rubbish bin.
I will vary my zero distance slightly for each particular rifle / scope combination to best match the ballistics to the reticle so I get those nice round subtension holdovers. On most decent BDC reticles they come closely calibrated to most common cartridges assuming either a 100 yard or 200 yard zero. So my zero ranges are usually very close to one or the other.
So that’s my take on MPBR. It is a sound principle for most close range stalking as long as you are fully aware of the potential for missing the vitals low, when working close to the maximum range, and the need to have access to a place where you can confidently zero your rifle at the calculated distance. But for me I am shooting close to or beyond the maximum range probably 50% of the time.
My vote will be for aim small, miss small every time as it promotes better precision, with consequent improved probability of instant kills.
Last edited:
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
If you pick a 3”( say 6cms ) circle MPBR works fine inside 220yds, 6-8” circles are for guys back in the 70’s with no range finders.
dawnbreaker
Well-Known Member
Hey man really enjoyed reading that very informative info on your experiences with it, I'm new to centerfire and the longer ranges I totally get what your saying, ill probably be foxing realistically out to max 200 atm with the 223, so 1" high at 100 would probably do me fine, was just interested in peoples thoughts on mpbr, great reply cheers
Wrong method use ARSHINS
With my 270 I like a 200m zero (about 1.5" high at 100m) which gives me 3" target MPBR of around 230m. On the rare occasion that I shoot any further I'll hold over.
I just checked my 220 yesterday. 1" high at 100m and 2" low at 220m which works out to roughly 200m MPBR for a 2" target - perfect for small deer.
(When I talk about inches I mean thumbwidths - luckily the same)
I just checked my 220 yesterday. 1" high at 100m and 2" low at 220m which works out to roughly 200m MPBR for a 2" target - perfect for small deer.
(When I talk about inches I mean thumbwidths - luckily the same)
All this long-range (200+ yards) shooting is simply beyond me so I’d rather focus on where to hold the crosshair on a doe’s neck at 25 yards with a 100 yard zero.
K
K
Not just a 'scoped rifle, of course - otherwise the sights wouldn't work.
As you say, gravity starts 'acting on' the bullet as soon as it leaves the barrel - but as the bullet has been fired upwards it is disingenuous to suggest that it is falling in any sense than 'away from the extended line of the bore axis' - which is not in ay normal sense 'falling' at all.
It is, in fact, going what most of us would described as 'up'.
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