A question about archery…

[NomDeGuerre]

Hello folks, I’m new here, and from the United States. I have stalked in Scotland, but more regularly in the US, of course, and my buddies and I tend to prefer hunting with archery (both compound and traditional longbows and recurves) as well as flintlock muzzleloaders over modern centerfire rifles, although we certainly do that too.

My question is in regard to why it is illegal to hunt with archery in the UK? My hunting friends in the US are always surprised when I tell them that you can’t hunt using a bow in the UK, and ask me why.

My guess is there are probably two reasons. The first is historical in nature. In Europe, as elsewhere, archery was eclipsed as a tool of war and hunting with the invention and development of guns. As a tool of war, I would guess archery started to slip in popularity and practice in the 17th century. Indeed, Wikipedia mentions the following:

“The last recorded use of bows in battle in England seems to have been a skirmish at Bridgnorth; in October 1642, during the English Civil War, an impromptu militia, armed with bows, was effective against un-armoured musketmen.[70] The last use of the bow in battle in Britain is said to have occurred at the Battle of Tippermuir in Scotland on 1 September 1644…”

In the US, however, archery is enjoying a renaissance of sorts that I believe can be traced to August of 1911, when Ishi, the last of the Yahi Native American tribe was discovered living in seclusion with his family in Northern California. He was dubbed “the last wild American Indian.” There is some question about whether he was truly the last full blooded Yahi, but in any case, his discovery was an extraordinary anthropological event. Ishi taught Saxton Pope and Arthur Young how to make bows and arrows the way the Yahi tribe did, and how to hunt with them. I believe this is what kicked off an interest in archery that continued to flourish through the 20th century. I recall going to Summer camp in the Catskills mountains of NY, as well as in Maine, in the 1970’s, and archery was taught along with riflery with .22 rifles. I think archery in summer camps was taught as far back as the 1930’s.

In Pasadena, where I live today, we are home to the oldest field archery club in the nation, The Pasadena Roving Archers, and our club was founded in 1935, although the range was established in 1932. Portions of Errol Flynn’s Robin Hood movie were filmed at our range, with Howard Hill (a pioneering American archery target and hunting expert) performing some of the fantastic shots in the movie.

Anyway, I think that unique American archery connection is one of the main reasons why it is an accepted and popular method of hunting in the States.

I think the other reason may be because of the open range and largely treeless type of hill hunting that is prevalent in Scotland. I don’t know if there are wooded areas hunted in other parts of the UK, but certainly it would be difficult to get within archery range of beasts in the areas I’ve hunted in Scotland. Difficult, perhaps, but not impossible. I have shot Red Stag, for instance, at compound archery distances.

In California and Arizona, where I hunt regularly, it’s open desert terrain, for the most part, so getting within archery range of Mule deer is also difficult, but many of us prefer it to any other type of hunting. Part of the attraction is the skill required to successfully get within shooting range, undetected, and also the skill to successfully and accurately shoot with a bow.

We don’t harvest as frequently as rifle hunters do, but for us, it’s not all about the kill. Being out there is the thing. If we successfully take game, that’s the bonus.

So I am curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. Have any of you hunted with bow and arrow before? If you haven’t, I recommend you try it sometime, in a country where it is permitted. I think you will like it!

 

[Tim.243]

Hello folks, I’m new here, and from the United States. I have stalked in Scotland, but more regularly in the US, of course, and my buddies and I tend to prefer hunting with archery (both compound and traditional longbows and recurves) as well as flintlock muzzleloaders over modern centerfire rifles, although we certainly do that too.

My question is in regard to why it is illegal to hunt with archery in the UK? My hunting friends in the US are always surprised when I tell them that you can’t hunt using a bow in the UK, and ask me why.

My guess is there are probably two reasons. The first is historical in nature. In Europe, as elsewhere, archery was eclipsed as a tool of ear and hunting with the invention and development of guns. As a tool of war, I would guess archery started to slip in popularity and practice in the 17th century. Indeed, Wikipedia mentions the following:

“The last recorded use of bows in battle in England seems to have been a skirmish at Bridgnorth; in October 1642, during the English Civil War, an impromptu militia, armed with bows, was effective against un-armoured musketmen.[70] The last use of the bow in battle in Britain is said to have occurred at the Battle of Tippermuir in Scotland on 1 September 1644…”

In the US, however, archery is enjoying a renaissance of sorts that I believe can be traced to August of 1911, when Ishi, the last of the Yahi Native American tribe was discovered living in seclusion with his family in Northern California. He was dubbed “the last wild American Indian.” There is some question about whether he was truly the last full blooded Yahi, but in any case, his discovery was an extraordinary anthropological event. Ishi taught Saxton Pope and Arthur Young how to make bows and arrows the way the Yahi tribe did, and how to hunt with them. I believe this kicked off an interest in archery that continued to flourish through the 20th century. I recall going to Summer camp in the Catskills mountains of NY, as well as in Maine, in the 1970’s, and archery was taught along with riflery with .22 rifles. I think archery in summer camps was taught as far back as the 1930’s.

In Pasadena, where I live today, we are home to the oldest field archery club in the nation, The Pasadena Roving Archers, and our club was founded in 1935, although the range was established in 1932. Portions of Errol Flynn’s Robin Hood movie were filmed at our range, with Howard Hill (a pioneering American archery target and hunting expert) performing some of the fantastic shots in the movie.

Anyway, I think that unique American archery connection is one of the main reasons why it is an accepted and popular method of hunting in the States.

I think the other reason may be because of the open range and largely treeless type of hill hunting that is prevalent in Scotland. I don’t know if there are wooded areas hunted in other parts of the UK, but certainly it would be difficult to get within archery range of beasts in the areas I’ve hunted in Scotland. Difficult, perhaps, but not impossible. I have shot Red Stag, for instance at compound archery distances.

In California and Arizona, where I hunt regularly, it’s open desert terrain, for the most part, so getting within archery range or Mule deer is also difficult, but many of us prefer it to any other type of hunting. Part of the attraction is the skill required to successfully get within shooting range, undetected, and also the skill to successfully and accurately shoot with a bow.

We don’t harvest as frequently as rifle hunters do, but for us, it’s not all about the kill. Being out there is the thing. If we successfully take game, that’s the bonus.

So I am curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. Have any of you hunted with bow and arrow before? If you haven’t, I recommend you try it sometime, in a country where it is permitted. I think you will like it!

I watch Hollis Farms who bow hunt...he has lost deer as unlike a rifle the back up shot from a bow is to slow and the deer will be out of range...

Personally I think they are a waste of time also from a personal or staff safety I chose the C/F each time.

BEAR 1 Bow Zero

 

[VSS]

 

[NomDeGuerre]

I watch Hollis Farms who bow hunt...he has lost deer as unlike a rifle the back up shot from a bow is to slow and the deer will be out of range...

Personally I think they are a waste of time also from a personal or staff safety I chose the C/F each time.

BEAR 1 Bow Zero

Well, as the saying goes… don’t knock it until you’ve tried it!

While I agree, a quick follow up shot is not available with archery, nor is it available with Flintlock muzzleloaders, the point is to hone one’s skill and temper one’s patience to not take the shot, unless you are certain of a clean kill, or at least as certain as one can be.

That won’t always be the case, of course, but then people sometimes wound and fail to recover their quarry with rifles, as well.

I’m not sure I get what your comment about personal and staff safety means. Would you please elaborate?

As for being a waste of time, I disagree whole heartedly. I have a lot of photos and memories that prove it’s certainly not a waste of time. I think accomplishing something the hard way is often more rewarding than doing it the easy way.

 

[willie_gunn]

The short answer is that the practice of bowhunting for deer is illegal in the UK because the Deer Act 1963 made it so.

This Act of Parliament specified that it was an offence to use any arrow, spear or similar missile for the purpose of taking or killing or injuring any deer. Similarly we have restrictions on the specification of firearm (rifle) and ammunition that may be used to shoot deer that originally date from this time.

As to why this is the case, during the passage of the Deer Act 1963 hunting with deer was actually debated, and it was noted that no agreement could be reached as to what would constitute the exact legal specifications of the bow and arrow that would be permitted (draw weight, arrow design, etc.). Remember that our politicians were legislating on the exact specification for "legal" firearms for taking deer, so it would have been something of a contradiction to then allow a child's bow and arrow, say, to be deemed legal. In the absence of such agreement, and with no desire to start requiring certification for the ownership of bows and arrows, they were prohibited for deer hunting purposes.

Since then much legislation has been passed, including the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981. This act was passed, as it's name implies, for the protection fo wild animals and the environment. Section 11 of this Act made it an offence to use a bow or crossbow in the killing or taking of any wild animal (not just deer).

As you'd imagine, the history of hunting with a bow in the UK goes back centuries - you yourself mention Robin Hood, for example. However we are unlikely to see any similar kind of resurgence here as in the US, as the animal welfare argument (real or otherwise) would prevent the introduction of the necessary legalisation to make it possible.

BTW, I lived in the US (well, Texas, so really an entirely different country) for a number of years. Whilst I didn't go bowhunting myself, a number of my colleagues at work then did - and several of my current US work colleagues still do.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

During the writing & passing of the deer act 1963 there were no compound bows available then to my knowledge so it would have been perceived as inhumane, although fox hunting with hounds carried on for years after that date. Welcome BTW.

 

[BlackWing]

The bow, and crossbow has had a bad press with plenty of instances where yobs have shot pets, and other animals with target points and just maimed the animals. this has the hand wringing do-gooders screaming and reaching for the petition websites.

But also, unlike firearms, bows and crossbows are quiet, just the job for the savvy poacher to dispatch an animal with a well placed shot(if they know what they're doing)

I notice that you can buy bows and crossbows here in the UK that are incredibly powerful

 

[NomDeGuerre]

I didn’t post this question to raise feathers, although I welcome a healthy debate if stalking with archery is looked down on by some or even the majority of members here. It was an honest question, and I am genuinely interested to hear what any have to say, whether your viewpoint on hunting with bow and arrow is positive or negative.

I do wish to address safety concerns, though, as archery is one of the safest sports to engage in. For target archery in the US, statistics from the National Safety Council show that target archery is one of the safest sports with an injury rate of around .57 per 1000 participants. The only sports listed as safer are Bowling, Badminton and Table Tennis. For comparison, statistically, in the US, Golf is roughly 3 times more dangerous, Horseback Riding is 8 times more dangerous, Baseball is 23 times more dangerous, Bicycling is 28 times more dangerous and Basketball is 42 times more dangerous.

https://www.usarchery.org/resources/ata-athlete-safety-brochure-011021174802.pdf

For Hunting, too, archery is far safer than hunting with firearms. You can find many such studies, but this one is from NY State in 2020. In brief, it states a 5 year average of .2 injuries reported for archery hunting related accidents, compared to 7.2 for shotgun and 6.2 for rifles.

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/hrsisummary.pdf

 

[NomDeGuerre]

But also, unlike firearms, bows and crossbows are quiet, just the job for the savvy poacher to dispatch an animal with a well placed shot(if they know what they're doing)

Fair, but unlike in most of the US, suppressors, or moderators, as I’ve heard them referred to in Scotland at times, are in widespread use in the UK. While not as quiet as a bow or crossbow, poaching with a suppressed firearm is theoretically easier as a result.

 

[willie_gunn]

I didn’t post this question to raise feathers, although I welcome a healthy debate if stalking with archery is looked down on by some or even the majority of members here. It was an honest question, and I am genuinely interested to hear what any have to say, whether your viewpoint on hunting with bow and arrow is positive or negative/

I do wish to address safety concerns, though, as archery is one of the safest sports to engage in. For target archery in the US, statistics from the National Safety Council show that target archery is one of the safest sports with an injury rate of around .57 per 1000 participants. The only sports listed as safer are Bowling, Badminton and Table Tennis. For comparison, statistically, in the US, Golf is roughly 3 times more dangerous, Horseback Riding is 8 times more dangerous, Baseball is 23 times more dangerous, Bicycling is 28 times more dangerous and Basketball is 42 times more dangerous.

https://www.usarchery.org/resources/ata-athlete-safety-brochure-011021174802.pdf

For Hunting, too, archery is far safer than hunting with firearms. You can find many such studies, but this one is from NY State in 2020. In brief, it states a 5 year average of .2 injuries reported for archery hunting related accidents, compared to 7.2 for shotgun and 6.2 for rifles.

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/hrsisummary.pdf

I'm afraid you'll soon come to realise that, whilst admirable in itself, appealing for rational decisions to be taken based on indisputable facts is something of a non-starter - whether one is talking in terms of the UK public in general or the actions of our politicians in particular.

As the old saying goes, our Honourable Members of Parliament are "often wrong, never in doubt"

 

[NomDeGuerre]

Thank you willie-gun, Bavarianbrit, and Black Wing, for your insights. I’m learning a lot, and hadn’t known about the 1963 Deer Act before.

Archery hunting regulations are unique to each State in the US, with some regulating the types of bows by draw weight, while others have a distance requirement that the intended bow must be able to cast the intended arrow. Boradhead types and specifications are also regulated with varying rules State by State.

 

[BlackWing]

From what I've seen of bowhunting from shows like Meateater and the like, plus Youtube, an arrow with a good hunting broadhead is very effective at causing the massive hemorrhage needed to put an animal down, but only if the hunter knows where to put that arrow. Plus the distances mean that you have to have good fieldcraft to get close enough to the quarry to guarantee that perfect shot.

I'd imagine hunters that care about this, practice long and hard to deliver the arrow to the right spot, and practice stalking skills to get close.

I've never hunted with bow and arrow, I'd love to. My own experience is starting out with air rifle on rabbit and squirrel, being low power I really had to get close to the quarry to place the pellet accurately to do the job humanely. When I moved up to firearms I found that my fieldcraft suffered, I didn't have to worry so much about getting that close, and a shot anywhere upper body on a rabbit with a .17hmr would usually mean a clean kill, often from distances which I'd never dream of shooting with and air rifle.

 

[willie_gunn]

I didn’t post this question to raise feathers.

Though I fear regrettably you will.

BTW, in post #5 above the paragraph that starts with "As to why this is the case, during the passage of the Deer Act 1963 hunting with deer was actually debated...." should read "As to why this is the case, during the passage of the Deer Act 1963 hunting with a bow and arrow was actually debated....". It surely would have been odd, even in the UK, if the Deer Act had passed without a debate on hunting deer!

 

[foxdropper]

Some of the YouTube vids fall far short of giving the bow any credibility at all .Just watched a buff get shot in the leg with a 3 day wasted follow up .The bowman was so unfit and shakey it was always going to go that way .Also seen moose put down on the spot with correct shot .
Same with firearms ,it’s in the hands of the user .
I would love a return to bow hunting here proper stalking IMO but the powers that be will never sanction a reversal .
Can anyone think of one single law which has been reversed ,I can’t .

 

[NomDeGuerre]

From what I've seen of bowhunting from shows like Meateater and the like, plus Youtube, an arrow with a good hunting broadhead is very effective at causing the massive hemorrhage needed to put an animal down, but only if the hunter knows where to put that arrow. Plus the distances mean that you have to have good fieldcraft to get close enough to the quarry to guarantee that perfect shot.

I'd imagine hunters that care about this, practice long and hard to deliver the arrow to the right spot, and practice stalking skills to get close.

I've never hunted with bow and arrow, I'd love to. My own experience is starting out with air rifle on rabbit and squirrel, being low power I really had to get close to the quarry to place the pellet accurately to do the job humanely. When I moved up to firearms I found that my fieldcraft suffered, I didn't have to worry so much about getting that close, and a shot anywhere upper body on a rabbit with a .17hmr would usually mean a clean kill, often from distances which I'd never dream of shooting with and air rifle.

All of the bow hunters I’ve come across in my hunting travels tend to care greatly about taking only ethical shots, and becoming as good as they possibly can at stalking game to close range. Of course there must be bowhunters who exist that aren’t as ethically minded, but it’s inherently difficult to even get into a position with a shot opportunity with a bow out in the Western States I most frequently hunt. A few years ago I read that the average number of days in the field for bowhunter to successfully harvest a deer in California is 87 or something like that. I don’t think that’s quite accurate based on my experiences, and those of my buddies, but it is unquestionably hard to do. If just putting meat on the table is someone’s main goal, archery probably isn’t going to be their tackle of choice.

 

[NomDeGuerre]

Some of the YouTube vids fall far short of giving the bow any credibility at all .Just watched a buff get shot in the leg with a 3 day wasted follow up .The bowman was so unfit and shakey it was always going to go that way .Also seen moose put down on the spot with correct shot .
Same with firearms ,it’s in the hands of the user .

100% in agreement.

 

[NullMac]

Poaching.

The early Deer Acts were created by the Toffs and had some outrageous clauses designed to imprison anyone the fox hunting classes rich bastards landowners decided was a poacher. So there was no chance they were going to allow a silent and unlicensed "weapon" to be used legally for deer stalking.

So in Scotland if you are accused to poaching deer and someone believes it to be true then that is an offence in itself. Unbelievable. Also you can be convicted of poaching on the basis of evidence provided by one person (eh the Lairds man) overriding that pesky need for corroboration in Scotland. You can't be convicted of rape in Scotland without corroboration but you can be convicted of poaching.

Interestingly, removing the deer taken in poaching is not an offence in itself so the magistrate needs to remember to rule that the deer is forfeit.

 

[NomDeGuerre]

That is fascinating, NullMac!

And I see this got moved to Off Topic. Apologies to the forum moderators for not putting it there initially.

 

[kes]

Hello Nom de Guerre, welcome to the site.
Never having used a bow to hunt and otherwise inexpertly, I wouldn't hunt with a bow (if it were permitted), because in my hands it would not be humane.
My view of the method is therefore coloured by my own lack of capability.
Whilst I respect your right to do as you wish at home, I think we have the law about right here, (except for catapults and sling shots).

 

[Sealgair nam fiadh]

Poaching.

The early Deer Acts were created by the Toffs and had some outrageous clauses designed to imprison anyone the fox hunting classes rich bastards landowners decided was a poacher. So there was no chance they were going to allow a silent and unlicensed "weapon" to be used legally for deer stalking.

So in Scotland if you are accused to poaching deer and someone believes it to be true then that is an offence in itself. Unbelievable. Also you can be convicted of poaching on the basis of evidence provided by one person (eh the Lairds man) overriding that pesky need for corroboration in Scotland. You can't be convicted of rape in Scotland without corroboration but you can be convicted of poaching.

Interestingly, removing the deer taken in poaching is not an offence in itself so the magistrate needs to remember to rule that the deer is forfeit.

Which sections ot the Deer Act are you talking about?
As far as I am aware, the only legislation that allows the evidence of one person is the Salmon Acts and that person must be a Warrant Card holding Water Bailiff.

Removing a dead deer from someone's land would be theft.