Non-firing ammunition issue???

[Andy seatrout]

Well, this is annoying to say the least…..

I started reloading back in July for 6.5x55 swede - new cases all good. Had a couple of hooky rounds but generally once the powder measure and primer seater started to work well, no problems with new cases….and I’m weighing all finished rounds now to ensure consistency….

Worked up some loads with Reloader Swiss R60, hornady SST in 140g and 129g and Hornady GMX in 120g….. using CCI large primers…. All good, not quite as consistent standard deviation through the chrono but getting there….. accuracy was acceptable.

Then….. I resized the fired cases using the ‘standard case’ that you buy as a template in the full length sizing die, and found that I was having misfires- in that the round was not going off…..

Spoke to Mike Norris- he suggested I was ‘over sizing’ I.e. making the case too short, by moving the shoulder too far back……so I measured the chamber in the sako and found that it was a big bigger than the dummy case.

It was a significant issue as for one lot of 30 rounds it’s was literally six misfires- primer didn’t ignite at all, yes there was powder in them when I pulled the bullets.

Nowt wrong with the firing pin- taken it all apart and looked it’s a Sako 85 finnlight, my mate has the same and when we were testing the ammo his rifle was doing the same- so defo the case or primer.

So I follow Mikes advice, backing off the sizing die to the point where I can ‘feel’ a bit of resistance’ and re-loaded 50 lapua in 140g…… yes I though I’ve solved it! …… then this one bloody round….. the strike on the primer is decent and deep, the COL is within tolerance…..

Any thoughts? Dodgy primers ( I’ve not used the new ones I bought from Mike yet) or damaging the anvil in seating the primer? Or too much lubrication? I used spray lube for some of these cases- could it have affected the primer? Am I better with wax?

Any ideas what to try next? I know it’s only 1 in 50, but it’s bugging the **** outa me….

 

[NP435]

Might be a contaminated primer, simple solution is don't spray primed cases. Possibly just 1 bad primer, I have never had a primer fail me in my years of handloading all i managed was shoulders a bit far back and that made excess headspace light strikes few bangs, lesson learned mistake never repeated.

 

[Alantoo]

Or too much lubrication? I used spray lube for some of these cases- could it have affected the primer? Am I better with wax?

Looks a large indent both diameter and depth...when you pull the bullet have look at the primer to see if there actually was an anvil in there...make sure you wear safety glasses and take precautions when you gently push the primer out.

I had one primer that went fizz rather than bang and according to CCI it was one in a million...the photo I posted in the thread shows a similar depth and diameter as your primer...the pressure hasn't flattened it out against the bolt face...

duff primer?

anyone seen this happen before? its a misfire on the cartridge on the right, Im thinking its just a duff (or contaminated?) primer but would welcome any other thoughts from the mass of experience here. Rifle Blaser professional 6.5x55 Load Norma once fired but FLR brass, primer pocket cleaned...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

When F/L sizing I use the 12:1 Iso Propyl Alcohol Lanolin mix (as supplied by @Dr. Strangelove) and apply it by doing a few squirts into and empty polythene bag and then put in a couple of dozen cases and jumble them around a bit. Enough lubricant gets into the inside of the case neck but that system ensures that you do not squirt too much into any case.

However I don't thing it will have been the cause of your non-fire. I have done experiments with water and oil soaked CCI primers and they all went off with no problem....I concluded the only way to make one inert was to hit it with a hammer...or a tap on a pointed bit of welding rod down beside the anvil leg. Turns out it only needs a one ounce hammer tap! But I did these experiments wearing full PPE and hiding behind a blast plate!

Alan

 

[SCC]

I have the same rifle and load using RS60 (among others) and CCI LP. Cant say i've ever had a misfire in upwards of 1300 rounds.
Thats looks to be a good hit to the primer. And suprising that it never fired. Hence my guess that it could be a duff one.
Iv'e only been at this game for a few years but aren't CCI primers silver in colour ? ...all mine have been so far.

 

[Alantoo]

I have the same rifle and load using RS60 (among others) and CCI LP. Cant say i've ever had a misfire in upwards of 1300 rounds.
Thats looks to be a good hit to the primer. And suprising that it never fired. Hence my guess that it could be a duff one.
Iv'e only been at this game for a few years but aren't CCI primers silver in colour ? ...all mine have been so far.

Mine were CCI LRP no.200 and also silver.

@Andy seatrout refers to "the new ones I bought from Mike yet" maybe those are CCI?

The duff one is in the front right case

 

[MarinePMI]

If your chamber is a bit longer than normal, then the misfire is likely from a combination of the case being too short, and the primers not being fully seated. When the firing pin strikes the primer, its wasting energy moving the case forward, as well as driving the primer into the primer pocket. This is evident since your fired primers are fairly flat (usually evidence of a case that's a tad too short at the shoulder), and your misfire is very rounded, and almost protruding. The reason your fired primers are flat is that when the firing pin hits the primers, it also is pushing the case forward. Enough that the primer starts to back out as pressures rise. As the pressures begin to peak, this drives the case (violently) back onto the bolt face (with the primer slightly protruded, because the pressures have pushed it out of the pocket slightly). When the case head hits the bolt face, your primer then gets flattened.

JMTCW...

Oh, and quit weighing your loaded ammunition "for consistency". Any variations you see in weight are lost in the (mathematical) noise. When cases and bullets can vary by .5grs each (or more) than weighing the finished cartridge becomes a waste of time and energy, that provides no meaningful information.

 

[Alantoo]

Oh, and quit weighing your loaded ammunition "for consistency". Any variations you see in weight are lost in the (mathematical) noise. When cases and bullets can varying by .5grs each (or more) than weighing the finished cartridge becomes a waste of time and energy that provides no meaningful information.

? Is that to the OP or to me in response to the figures written on my cases in the photo above?

If to me.... those numbers refer to the load of powder in grammes in each case going up incrementally either for the safety test string...or to look for a flat spot in the velocity increase à la OCW ....can't remember if I was trying OCW back in March 2017.

Alan

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

? Is that to the OP or to me in response to the figures written on my cases in the photo above?

If to me.... those numbers refer to the load of powder in grammes in each case going up incrementally either for the safety test string...or to look for a flat spot in the velocity increase à la OCW ....can't remember if I was trying OCW back in March 2017.

Alan

I believe @MarinePMI is referring to Andy, who said he was weighing loaded rounds to ensure consistency!

 

[Alantoo]

I believe @MarinePMI is referring to Andy, who said he was weighing loaded rounds to ensure consistency!

Thank you. I reread the OP a couple of times following @MarinePMI 's post looking for the reference and still missed it

Alan

 

[Sinistral]

Then….. I resized the fired cases using the ‘standard case’ that you buy as a template in the full length sizing die, and found that I was having misfires- in that the round was not going off…..

Spoke to Mike Norris- he suggested I was ‘over sizing’ I.e. making the case too short, by moving the shoulder too far back……so I measured the chamber in the sako and found that it was a big bigger than the dummy case.

What's this 'template' case?
Sorry, I don't understand.

 

[Andy seatrout]

I could remember the exact terminology but it’s a modified case- supposed to be ‘exact’ to the case standard

 

[Andy seatrout]

I believe @MarinePMI is referring to Andy, who said he was weighing loaded rounds to ensure consistency!

He was and I was- I had some overcharged cases in the summer that were probably caused by a primer not being seated- me then pulling the bullet and ‘emptying’ the case ( but maybe some powder remaining in it) then reloading it…… overcharge….. I now use a cotton bud to clean tte case out and weight the rounds just for peace of mind.

I’ll bow to your opinion, and I take your point- 0.5g on cases and bullets would give you 1g + or -….. I’m happy if it’s within that tolerance- I’m looking for the one that weighs 5g more or less…. Due to me cocking something up….so I’ll maybe keep doing it to avoid a disaster.

( lapua cases weight about 15g more than hornady factory once fired….. that gave me a turn. I now sort them)

 

[MarinePMI]

I could remember the exact terminology but it’s a modified case- supposed to be ‘exact’ to the case standard

A mass produce modified case is anything but "exact" for your chamber. They're made to a certain intended dimension, with typical industry tolerances. If you do desire an "exact" fit to your chamber, you just need a size "L" drill bit and a 5/16-36 tap, and you can make any modified case you want from fired brass, and it'll fit your chamber exactly. Just neck size the case afterwards, and then expand the neck to allow a bullet to seat with no resistance. If you own a comparator, and shoot any obscure or wildcat cartridge, then having said drill and tap will come in quite handy.

 

[Andy seatrout]

…… yes I think that’s what I concluded- the full sizing die was set on the modified case- then having resized once fired brass it was too short for the actual chamber…….

I think I need to follow your and Mike Norris advice ( he suggested similar…. I’ve a chamber gauge/ comparator….. it looks like I need to wind the sizing die back up a bit more….

Thanks for the advice, it is appreciated.

I shall also go easier on the case lube and be cleaner with my primers…

 

[MarinePMI]

…… yes I think that’s what I concluded- the full sizing die was set on the modified case- then having resized once fired brass it was too short for the actual chamber…….

I think I need to follow your and Mike Norris advice ( he suggested similar…. I’ve a chamber gauge/ comparator….. it looks like I need to wind the sizing die back up a bit more….

Thanks for the advice, it is appreciated.

I shall also go easier on the case lube and be cleaner with my primers…

To be clear, when using a comparator, you use the measurement of a fired case, to that of a sized case, to adjust your dies (not the modified case itself). Measure several fired cases and find the average shoulder length. Then set your die up, so that it is doing minimal sizing. Size a case, then measure how much the case's shoulder is being "bumped" back. You should only size the fired brass just enough to easily chamber (usually .002-.003" is needed). This will prevent the case from "growing" excessively in length when resizing, and will prolong the life of the brass (especially if they are annealed periodically). Everytime you resize a case, it will grow. Bumping the shoulder back, only enough to allow smooth chambering, will keep that growth to a bare minimum. If you chamfer the case mouth each time you reload, you'll likely never need to trim the brass.

As an aside, the comparator has two sets of inserts available. Ones for measuring bullet ogive comparisons (small holes), and one set for measuring shoulder length comparison (big holes, and longer inserts, to allow measuring the shoulders of loaded rounds).

 

[sharkbait]

Just a thought are you using pistol primers mistakenly for rifle primers?

 

[Andy seatrout]

Just a thought are you using pistol primers mistakenly for rifle primers?

No definitely large rifle primers CCI

 

[Sinistral]

…… yes I think that’s what I concluded- the full sizing die was set on the modified case- then having resized once fired brass it was too short for the actual chamber…….

I'm not convinced that the case shoulder can be set back so far with standard dies as to cause a weak or inconsistent primer strike. Think how much the firing pin actually protrudes.
If it was possible for the firing pin to drive the case forward so much clear of the boltface as to result in a partial strike, then I think there would be a dangerous headspace condition.
Rifles could then be blowing up all over the place, so sorry just not buying this at all.

 

[Sharpie]

That primer appears to have gone bang, judging by the blackening inside it.

And it seems to have had a good strike from the firing pin.

So I'm guessing that for some peculiar reason the powder did not go off.

Yes over-sized cases might have weakened the strike, but I think you may have some fundamental problem with your powder and/or how you clean your cases. Do you use wet methods (SS pins, ultrasonic etc. If so are you sure that they are all absolutely dry inside ?

Just my thoughts. But I'm fairly certain that the primer did go off. Smash it with a hammer on an anvil, (taking eye, face hands and ear precautions) if you doubt me. If it then goes bang, well, I'm wrong.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

dodgy primers
what lot number are they?
There are numerous examples of a batch of CCI that were a bit shite
havent come across it lately though

could they have been old? damp? oily?

nothing wrong with the strike, stop chasing headspace issues