Dog breeding question

[Hayduke]

My bitch will be just six when she next comes into season, will she be over the hill - too old to breed? She is working well, bags of energy and in great form.

Also despite parents being: fox red (dam), and liver and white (sire), the whole litter came out black! Is black a dominant dog gene colour? The lucky Sire will be liver and white, is there any way to determine or predict what colour the pups would be?

She is a well known cross between two of the well known larger deer / gun dog breeds. I'd prefer not to name the cross because I know a few on here are not enthusiastic about crossing breeds, and I respect that. Anyway she's great company and a great working dog and I'd rather the crossing debate not detract from the question.

 

[Fair Hill]

Six is a grand age and I know a lot of bitches that threw some of their best stuff after that age.

I wouldn't be one bit worried about the colour as greatgrandparents can have an influence on that, once they do what they're bred for that's the main thing.

 

[Dogtra UK]

Black is always the dominant gene.

As to age, tge only thing to be mindful of is her pelvis will have fused and not be as elastic as a younger bitch. As such make sure she is in top physical shape and don’t over feed so that she has fewer difficulties parting with the pups.

 

[countrryboy]

Is it her 1st litter??

Might be easier at that age if a 2nd litter.
Also might be worth only lining her once and not getting a repeat mating a few days later, know of a few lads convinced when they get a noticeably bigger/smaller pup to think thats the difference between the 2 matings, not sure if true.
Some folk like the double lining while others don't

Really best to ask ur vet as they will know how fit ( or not, in some cases ) the bitch will be.
Does the kc not have a different top age for a maiden bitch? While ur pups wont be eligible atleast it give u an idea wot they think is good practice age wise, althou i doubt they will be used to dogs as fit as working dogs

Might be worth getting her scanned as well if u do go for it so u know wot ur dealing with numbers wise in relation to feed, u wouldn't want to be over feeding a small litter and there all monster pups


Don't want to get into the breeding mongral thing ( and i have 2 in the kennels, so not against it ) but if u were breeding either breed pure, a knowledgable breeder could look at the pedigrees and give a very good guess wot genes each dog has and if it has any reccessive genes,

Black is the more dominat colour for labs but some black labs will carry yellow gens too, so u can breed 2 black labs and get yellow pups, i'm guessing 25%, of litter but my geneology is a bit rusty nowadays, but the principles are the same for any species.
The only thing i know about the wireys colour is to get a solid liver pup u need both dam and sire to be solid liver, so that must be a reccessive gene in that breed.
Possibly if ur liver and white stud carries the solid gene it might alter the colour? I have no idea, but is possible
U see it with cross breed cattle too, any hereford X usually has a white face, which must over ride other genes

Because ur mixing breeds and possibly even more so as a 2nd gen it would be very hard to tell wot phenotypes might come out of the mixing pot, which is true not just for colour but tempernment, nose, drive etc

Ur mibbee as well asking a few hill keepers as they will probably give u a more informed answer as they will have bred more of wot ur talking about and have abetter idea of colours, coat type etc, esp going into 2nd and 3rd gens, i have read in the past u begin to lose hybrid vigor after the 2nd gen

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Black is always the dominant gene.

As to age, tge only thing to be mindful of is her pelvis will have fused and not be as elastic as a younger bitch. As such make sure she is in top physical shape and don’t over feed so that she has fewer difficulties parting with the pups.

Perfect answer IMHO

 

[countrryboy]

Just thinking about the colour in theory, at a basic level.

If ur original lab bitch was yellow/FR it must of had YY genes ( assuming it is a simple 1 gene for colour, and apologies if wrong ran labs for years but never breed)
Assuming the wire stud was 2x LW and not carrying a solid L gene, solid Liver must be the reccessive colour for wires

Ur bitch should be a Y LW which throws black

So if u mate it with a stud again it would depend on wether it is just 2x LW, or some solid L or even some Black from the wire side?

But in theory atleast some pups should be 2x LW genes, wot that means in practice i have no idea, althou guessing black? ur hill lads will know or have a better idea
Really becomes a question of when the 3/4 wire colour genes overcome the 1/4 lab colour black, how many gens do u need to go to get back to a LW wire looking pup and even then u might sometimes get a black 'throwback'
Some health things or colours can skip generations
I thought u usually put them back to a lab 2nd gen cross?
I have heard some say the 2nd gen are better but there dogs were always a bit on the wild side, even wilder than my mob!

 

[rem284]

My bitch will be just six when she next comes into season, will she be over the hill - too old to breed? She is working well, bags of energy and in great form.

Also despite parents being: fox red (dam), and liver and white (sire), the whole litter came out black! Is black a dominant dog gene colour? The lucky Sire will be liver and white, is there any way to determine or predict what colour the pups would be?

She is a well known cross between two of the well known larger deer / gun dog breeds. I'd prefer not to name the cross because I know a few on here are not enthusiastic about crossing breeds, and I respect that. Anyway she's great company and a great working dog and I'd rather the crossing debate not detract from the question.

Kennel Club says a maiden bitch needs to have had the litter of pups before she reaches 6year old or they won't register any of the pups. They also say maximum age of a bitch having a litter should have whelped before reaching 8 years old.

I don't agree with them because if nature didn't intend bitches to breed then they wouldn't come in to season. I discussed this with a vet and he agreed with me and added larger breeds are best breed when they are a bit older

 

[deerstalker.308]

Kennel Club says a maiden bitch needs to have had the litter of pups before she reaches 6year old or they won't register any of the pups. They also say maximum age of a bitch having a litter should have whelped before reaching 8 years old.

I don't agree with them because if nature didn't intend bitches to breed then they wouldn't come in to season. I discussed this with a vet and he agreed with me and added larger breeds are best breed when they are a bit older

Also being a non pedigree litter that would only be a guide and not necessarily meet to be adhered to as they won’t be registered.
Worth considering with cross breeds the potential for size variation in pups, not always as consistent as with known entities, for my liking 6 would be a tad late for a maiden bitch but every dog is different, and as said, you and your vet are the best placed to make that call, it can be a big drain on a dog, so be mindful of what you are putting her through. I think you are right to ask the question.

 

[countrryboy]

I'm i right in saying that older stud dogs tend to throw smaller litters??

I have heard some old timers say that absolutely no idea if true, but if it was mibbee worth using an older stud and hope to get less in the litter to make it easier on the bitch.
Dunno wot type/style/size the stud dog is but it might be wise to choose a smaller type wire, more danish type lines than the traditional larger DD/german style of dog, might depend wot size ur bitch is too


The same old thing is still true for breeding from any dog, look at it not as ur own and realy asses it, do u think u could buy in better??
At her age and the price of the X pups + more unknowns from being a 2nd gen X, is it worth risking the bitch or losing money if a C section?
I dunno wot the standard litter size is of the X's but both breeds generally have quite large litters so it could put some strain on her

 

[shakey jake]

I'm i right in saying that older stud dogs tend to throw smaller litters??

I have heard some old timers say that absolutely no idea if true, but if it was mibbee worth using an older stud and hope to get less in the litter to make it easier on the bitch.
Dunno wot type/style/size the stud dog is but it might be wise to choose a smaller type wire, more danish type lines than the traditional larger DD/german style of dog, might depend wot size ur bitch is too


The same old thing is still true for breeding from any dog, look at it not as ur own and realy asses it, do u think u could buy in better??
At her age and the price of the X pups + more unknowns from being a 2nd gen X, is it worth risking the bitch or losing money if a C section?
I dunno wot the standard litter size is of the X's but both breeds generally have quite large litters so it could put some strain on her

cant see how the dog would make much difference, when you consider the number if swimmers in a single load

 

[countrryboy]

cant see how the dog would make much difference, when you consider the number if swimmers in a single load

Aye or mibbe they don't swim as fast?

I said i had no idea but have heard old timers on about it, infact sure i read it in an older book too.

 

[Lloyd90]

Aye or mibbe they don't swim as fast?

I said i had no idea but have heard old timers on about it, infact sure i read it in an older book too.

Some interesting reading:

What Determines Litter Size in Dogs?

Why does dog litter size vary so much and what determines litter size in puppies? OVRS looks at the main factors affecting litter size.

www.ovrs.com

 

[John Gryphon]

She is a well known cross between two of the well known larger deer / gun dog breeds.

I love those sorts "hybrid vigour' rules.

Remember re size wise that the bitch regulates the size of her pups,this is why a small spaniel can deliver Great Dane sire pups.

Go for it imo.

 

[Doric]

My bitch will be just six when she next comes into season, will she be over the hill - too old to breed? She is working well, bags of energy and in great form.

Also despite parents being: fox red (dam), and liver and white (sire), the whole litter came out black! Is black a dominant dog gene colour? The lucky Sire will be liver and white, is there any way to determine or predict what colour the pups would be?

She is a well known cross between two of the well known larger deer / gun dog breeds. I'd prefer not to name the cross because I know a few on here are not enthusiastic about crossing breeds, and I respect that. Anyway she's great company and a great working dog and I'd rather the crossing debate not detract from the question.

A lot less hastle buying in a well bread pure pup. Not sure the logic in crossing breeds when we have excellent gundog types available.
My thoughts only, not dictating but having trained a great many gundogs and have been teaching handlers to get the best from their dogs for 40 years its the logical path.

 

[countrryboy]

Some interesting reading:

What Determines Litter Size in Dogs?

Why does dog litter size vary so much and what determines litter size in puppies? OVRS looks at the main factors affecting litter size.

www.ovrs.com

Interesting reading, how true it is i don't know thou.

It says the top dogs are bred from sires under 5 years old, a hell of a lot of bitches will be sired by studs a lot older the 5.

A few of the top breeders with a kennel full of FTCH studs would not want that to become the popular way of thinking in UK, would certainly cut their income down.
Hell they're is a breeder up the road with a cracking yellow dog that has been and still is so busy its hard to get a yellow dog without it in the pedigree, it must be over 10 now.

Might be an interesting study if ur into number crunching comparing FTCH's with the age of the stud dog
Not entirely sure i believe it will affect quality as genetics should be the same just either less sperm and less healthy sperm, once in the egg it shouldn't matter

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Interesting reading, how true it is i don't know thou.

It says the top dogs are bred from sires under 5 years old, a hell of a lot of bitches will be sired by studs a lot older the 5.

A few of the top breeders with a kennel full of FTCH studs would not want that to become the popular way of thinking in UK, would certainly cut their income down.
Hell they're is a breeder up the road with a cracking yellow dog that has been and still is so busy its hard to get a yellow dog without it in the pedigree, it must be over 10 now.

Might be an interesting study if ur into number crunching comparing FTCH's with the age of the stud dog
Not entirely sure i believe it will affect quality as genetics should be the same just either less sperm and less healthy sperm, once in the egg it shouldn't matter

I must agree....I raised my eyebrows at most of what was written in that piece......At best, a guideline....at worst misinformation.

 

[norma 308]

Old head keeper said to me when I bred my stalking partner at 2 how much do you love that dog !he said Be prepared for problems be prepared for the worst luckily she bred 9 healthy pups. At 6 yrs old I’d say be prepared! They’re not so supple and a heavy litter can knock them back personally 2-3-4 years old drops the odds even then it don’t always go to plan

 

[foxdropper]

Love these threads
What I do know about breeding is that the dog imparts more character to the litter whereas bitches are more for confirmation .With experience ,age has played no part in litter size ,good or bad pups or whether or not she has a bad time ,fitness and general wellness is everything when a bitch is chosen to be lined as well as during pregnancy and after .
The 50-50 genes thing is often overlooked with the thinking that one or other bad trait can be fixed in one generation by addition of a better dog ,bitch when fact any defects need to be bred out with long term thinking and dare I say it ,culling of non desired traits .
Get your bitch fit and breed her at 6 with confidence

 

[John Gryphon]

My liking is to start off with a very good bitch and the sire does not have to be a champion at all...even third tier dog over a rippin` bitch will produce handy pups.
Bitches make the pups,not the dogs. After the tie it is all up to the bitch from then on....old Tommy has done his bit and snores on the couch lol.
You can put the best champion dog over an also ran bitch and mostly come up with nothing like the first scenario will achieve.
I am really into hybrid vigour after seeing what some "show" people have done to some dog breeds.
There have been some ordinary looking Roman nosed,bowy front`s,splayed toed mutts on here over the years masquerading as 'best' imo. No matter people still love them.

 

[foxdropper]

Have to disagree strongly John but that’s discussion