Food for motivation or concentration?

Keith Edmunds

Well-Known Member
The inspiration of this post comes from the new book 'Tracking Dogs - Understanding, training and handling' by Leo Fabiani and Filvio Ponti.

As I have said on a previous thread, much of the content is very 'traditional'. On pages 104-105 the topic of 'food in the training track' is discussed. It is the opinion of the authors that the 'reward' should be at the end of the trail and the young tracking dog should not really need food motivation along the trail.

This viewpoint is a contrast to the opinion of much respected professional trainer/trialler Stefan Fuss who uses 'heeled-in' food actually on the trail as it increases focus and concentration. Stefan does not go OTT at end of the trail - the prize IS THE TRAIL itself.

What methods are others using?
 
Hot liver at the end of the trail. Whenever we shot a deer over the hounds we would feed all the hounds a lump of liver,they wanted it and knew the reward was coming.
Any pups/young dogs the same or give them handfuls of congealed blood from the cavity...yyyuuum!
I guess that's purely for reward. Do you use any food 'on the trail' while training young pups?
 
I guess that's purely for reward. Do you use any food 'on the trail' while training young pups?
No nothing at all,the reward comes at the end. I have often shot deer with old dogs then gone home picked up the pups for what they think is an outing and taken them back downwind of the carcase to let them 'find it' there is much joy and tail wagging and they are very proud of themselves ha ha. That is a super reward..then the choice bits too.
 
Personally, for me, if wanting to train a dog to follow old, cold trails or prepare for trials such as the Schwhk 20 and 40 hour trails, I now have a lot of interest in the following method explained to me by Stefan when we were collaborating on a series of articles. The below mthod really resonated and I will certainly use it the next time that I train a pup.............


"Among other things, I begin to start to activate the nose of the dog. I think the best way to do this is to instruct the puppy with the food-drive. The food-drive is very good to regulate the dog during his work. The puppy learns very quickly that if you work you will get food, and the better you work the more food you can earn. From day one in my training system, the puppy makes the connection that if you want to eat you had better perform well. Another positive side of the food-drive is that I link the dog to the ground-wounding or ground disturbance.

I lay a track only in my hiking boots and put food inside of that track. I use a lot of food, normally the amount of a whole meal for the dog. I do that to slow the puppy down because they are not able to eat, sniff and run at the same time. They learn fast that slowly means precisely and precisely is the best way to fill the empty belly. The puppy soon understands the experience that the ground-wounding feeds him and that there is food in every footprint. It is a very big thing for the puppy to work the food-drive but I give the track no specific priority. I never put a reward, a hide or the food bowl on the end of a simulated line. If you do that, the result is very clear; the puppy will become too focused on the ‘end’ of the track. He likes to get to the jackpot and forgets to concentrate on his work. The journey is the reward!"
 
I used food on the trail with my current pup. She would see a distraction (10 weeks) and that was the end of training. So a titbit every so often along the way focussed her, but she was a food orientated dog.

Whether it is her individuality, or the food, but I have an extremely focussed dog now (10 months old) and a very slow, but precise, tracking dog. She does not over run corners, never gets me out of breath following her, a d rarely needs help even on 20 hour tracks. I guess what works for some dogs will not work for others But it does no harm trying it.
 
The way i see it it this-

You do a good job your boss gives you a good bonus!

Next time you try harder to keep getting that bonus.

Same with dogs.

At the end and only at the end of the track give the dog a good reward, I’m not talking about a hand full of biscuits of a sachet of cat food, I'm talking about a lb of diced venison of meat!

You watch your dogs performance improve dramatically.

Even now at 7 after a track Heidi lays on my jacket waiting for the heart and wind pipe.

Also never feed a dog on the track, all you are doing is encouraging it to eat evidence of the shot or wound
 
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I used food on the trail with my current pup. She would see a distraction (10 weeks) and that was the end of training. So a titbit every so often along the way focussed her, but she was a food orientated dog.

Whether it is her individuality, or the food, but I have an extremely focussed dog now (10 months old) and a very slow, but precise, tracking dog. She does not over run corners, never gets me out of breath following her, a d rarely needs help even on 20 hour tracks. I guess what works for some dogs will not work for others But it does no harm trying it.
Sounds perfect - well done
 
Sounds perfect - well done
Well I wouldn't say perfect Keith, but we are getting somewhere.

From what I can tell, speed is a dogs nemesis with tracking. I must admit at first I was concerned about our plodding pace, but soon accepted this pace is very pleasant, I can un-tie my markers as I go while training and on the real thing, look for blood and hair as I go. Its the fast dogs that make wrong turns or overshoot corners.

Reading John Jeanneney's book recently, he makes the point that an 'excellent nose' is not an advantage if the dog is here, there and everywhere, i.e. working too fast.
 
Well I wouldn't say perfect Keith, but we are getting somewhere.

From what I can tell, speed is a dogs nemesis with tracking. I must admit at first I was concerned about our plodding pace, but soon accepted this pace is very pleasant, I can un-tie my markers as I go while training and on the real thing, look for blood and hair as I go. Its the fast dogs that make wrong turns or overshoot corners.

Reading John Jeanneney's book recently, he makes the point that an 'excellent nose' is not an advantage if the dog is here, there and everywhere, i.e. working too fast.
We had the opposite style - too fast - at the time of training ours I was not using the 'food drive' method, being imports, they came in between 4 and 8 months old and were already very driven and keen little hunters. Without doubt, we will use food along the track with our next pup and, as it will be 'home grown' we will start at a younger, more impressionable age.
 
Absolutely nothing will teach a pup to hunt to fruition better than following the bitch herself (a good bitch that is) to the quarry.
Of course not everyone has that opportunity to do this but its how they learn in the wild.
I don`t see any need to reward a pup/trainee with food along the way as the pup (imo) is thus working for the treat and its focus isnt solely on the end result.
NDS`s post above is on the money.
 
Absolutely nothing will teach a pup to hunt to fruition better than following the bitch herself (a good bitch that is) to the quarry.
Of course not everyone has that opportunity to do this but its how they learn in the wild.
I don`t see any need to reward a pup/trainee with food along the way as the pup (imo) is thus working for the treat and its focus isnt solely on the end result.
NDS`s post above is on the money.
I think the type of training method used probably depends on expectation. If you want a trialling dog for the 1000 metre trail aged 40 hours or you are part of a recovery team where old, cold, difficult trails are the norm, then training for 'precision' is vital. If you want an 'everyday' deer recovery dog then the method of training is less important as 'instinct' will play a greater part.
 
I think the type of training method used probably depends on expectation. If you want a trialling dog for the 1000 metre trail aged 40 hours or you are part of a recovery team where old, cold, difficult trails are the norm, then training for 'precision' is vital. If you want an 'everyday' deer recovery dog then the method of training is less important as 'instinct' will play a greater part.
Again here lies the problem, in my opinion there is no difference!

You should train for precision, why wouldn’t you, the aim is to find the deer is it not?

Why buy all the books and then train your dog to do a half cocked job!

All my dogs from the very beginning were trained to track at 16 hours or a long winters night, thats before i even became involved in the proper tracking game, of which i am now retired.

But each to their own, train your dogs how you like, but take it from me There is nothing like a BIG FAT bonus at the end of hard graft!
 
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Again here lies the problem, in my opinion there is no difference!

You should train for precision, why wouldn’t you, the aim is to find the deer is it not?

Why buy all the books and then train your dog to do a half cocked job!

All my dogs from the very beginning were trained to track at 16 hours or a long winters night, thats before i even became involved in the proper tracking game, of which i am now retired.

But each to their own, train your dogs how you like, but take it from me There is nothing like a BIG FAT bonus at the end of hard graft!
I agree that precision should always be a priority but there is no getting away from the fact that different methods can achieve the same result.....For example, your own opinion to "never feed a dog on the track" whereas others achieve great precision by using that very method.

Edit - to add...I guess that is the point of the discussion
 
Another key thing is getting scent up there nose from a very early age. From 4 weeks my pup was on some trails with dragged skin, blood etc. At this stage no food was used at all. I do think these very young days tracking triggered something in her that made her obsessed with tracking. But despite that, for a short period of time, some titbits on the way to the end helped to keep some concentration. It was probably only for a month I used this method and dropped it at a time where she was so much more focussed again.

I don't think there is a right and wrong, depends the dog. If you get to the end result of a well trained and useful dog, then you got there, the method is only interesting to others wanting to get their dogs to a similar standard.
 
Again here lies the problem, in my opinion there is no difference!

You should train for precision, why wouldn’t you, the aim is to find the deer is it not?

Why buy all the books and then train your dog to do a half cocked job!

All my dogs from the very beginning were trained to track at 16 hours or a long winters night, thats before i even became involved in the proper tracking game, of which i am now retired.

But each to their own, train your dogs how you like, but take it from me There is nothing like a BIG FAT bonus at the end of hard graft!

This is an interesting discussion. We've just started to train our HWV to track. As a matter of interest, when have your trainees last eaten when you set them on a trail - i.e. if it's a morning training session, have they had breakfast? Probably a stupid question...
 
This is an interesting discussion. We've just started to train our HWV to track. As a matter of interest, when have your trainees last eaten when you set them on a trail - i.e. if it's a morning training session, have they had breakfast? Probably a stupid question...
Hi Andrew, with regards to the 'food drive' method - they should be hungry - the feed on the trail should be their meal as in my 3rd post on this thread.
 
Andrew, with regards to the 'food drive' method - they should be hungry - the feed on the trail should be their meal as in my 3rd post on this thread.
 
It might be of interest to those currently training to share 'part 2' of the article - please find below....................

Training for a tracking dog begins with the first days of his life, that is why it is so important to choose the right breeder. The breeder’s job is to prepare the puppy for his life and give him an idea of his job in the future. After the puppy has arrived in his new home, the new owner is responsible for his development. From now on, it is up to us to help the puppy to grow up strong and to evolve the self-confidence required. Developing this confidence is the most important thing for a Teckel puppy in the first two months within its new home.

In my training program, the hunting dog is learning to handle every situation and can win every time. I play a lot with the puppies. In those games, they make the experience how to respond and how to fight. For those games, I use the hides from every type of big-game the dog should recover when he is a tracking dog – red deer, roe deer, boar etc. These silly, playful games are important to me because they build up the motivation and the drive we need later on.

Between the ages of 8 and 16 weeks, I also put a lot of time in creating rules and working on the basics of the obedience. Blood-tracking is mainly nothing else other than pure obedience work. I do the priming work for the obedience with the “Place-board”. The method that I am using is called “operate condition”. In the “operate condition” the dog shows me a behavior and I reward this with his food or ignore it. The good behavior that I reward will show more often than the ignored behavior. Therefore, the dog is learning very fast and having some additional fun. In that stage, that puppy can learn sit, down, recall and begin walking to heel.



I also use the “Place-board” for preparation for the blood work. I condition the puppy to a certain odour signature within a little jar. In the first step, he learns to use his nose on the empty little jar for one second (without a hole in the lid) and further on for a few seconds (with holes in the lid). Then I take a little jar and put everything that I find in the wood (leaves, dirt and twigs) plus every kind of animal blood inside. I call this the “Mix”. In the next step, the puppy sits next to me on the “Place-board” and I present him two little jars- one jar is empty and the other one contains the “Mix”. When the puppy points at the little jar with the “Mix” inside I reward this behavior. Nothing happens when he points towards the empty jar- he will get no food. The target of this work is that the dog points at the right little jar every time and will be a dependable pointer.



In the first two months, I also accustom the puppies to a tracking collar and the leash. This is so important because they have to feel comfortable when they are working with the tracking collar. This ‘feeling’ is very closely linked to the performance he will show us in our work. Among other things, I begin to start to activate the nose of the dog. I think the best way to do this is to instruct the puppy with the food-drive. The food-drive is very good to regulate the dog during his work. The puppy learns very quickly that if you work you will get food, and the better you work the more food you can earn. From day one in my training system, the puppy makes the connection that if you want to eat you had better perform well. Another positive side of the food-drive is that I link the dog to the ground-wounding or ground disturbance.



I lay a track only in my hiking boots and put food inside of that track. I use a lot of food, normally the amount of a whole meal for the dog. I do that to slow the puppy down because they are not able to eat, sniff and run at the same time. They learn fast that slowly means precisely and precisely is the best way to fill the empty belly. The puppy soon understands the experience that the ground-wounding feeds him and that there is food in every footprint. It is a very big thing for the puppy to work the food-drive but I give the track no specific priority. I never put a reward, a hide or the food bowl on the end of a simulated line. If you do that, the result is very clear; the puppy will become too focused on the ‘end’ of the track. He likes to get to the jackpot and forgets to concentrate on his work. The journey is the reward!



My way of training teaches the dog to go slowly and precisely because the ‘route’ to the end is the ‘goal’. He learns to follow the line of ground disturbance and food trail very slowly and precisely. The first food-drives are in an environment without any distraction. It is very important that the puppy is only focused on the track. At that age, I prefer that tracks are 30 to 60 meters. This is enough and more would be too much for the concentration span of the young puppy. As I mentioned above winning and success is everything at that age.


During the 4-8 month period, I start to train the dogs on “Spurlaut”. That means that I use any chance to work the dog on the track of a hare. For the first training, I let the puppy see one hare and let him chase that hare running free. The next step is that I look for a hare that has moved on and let the dog work only the track – with nose not eyes. I use a light leash and the tracking collar for that work. I let the dog follow as far as the dog is able to hold the line, and as far as I can control if he is on or not. As mentioned in part one, a Teckel that can follow a hare trail, with voice, for 400 meters will have the natural ability to follow wounded big game.


In the education of blood-tracking I begin to change from the food-drive to the scent-shoes and train the dogs on longer tracks. In addition, I change from areas without distraction to areas with light distraction. I start to work the dogs in the wood. The ageing time from preparing the track to following-it-up will be 12 to 20 hours. In this stage, I narrow the food down to zero in the hoof-prints, but I put closed food bowls in the track and normally the last bowl and one of the deer cleaves from the scent shoes on the end of the line. This is the only sign for the dog “you are reaching the target”, no prioritizing on the end. So no playing or fuss at the end. It is very important that you know exactly where the track is because you cannot correct the dog (in the right situation) if you do not know the exact line of the trail. Therefore, you have to mark it clearly. I use chalk on the trees for example. Knowing the route of the trail precisely is crucial.


From eight to 12 months I begin to work on longer tracks with more time between preparing and following-up. I start to train the dog on 40-hour tracks. I change the game cleaves used in the scent-shoes and we are more focused on preparing the dog for the upcoming trials. Normally at that age, I begin to work the dog out of his comfort zone. That means I work the dog into mistakes and see how he behaves. For example, I lay a drag with a fresh hide across my blood trail on three parts of the line shortly before I follow it with the dog. I mark very exactly the crossing point and wait to see what happens. If the dog follows the distraction, I correct him very clearly. In the next step, I watch how his body language changes when he comes to the next crossing point.

I always correct the dogs when they leave the track very, very clearly. These corrections are vital to create a reaction in the body language of your dog. That way helps you to learn his behavior when he is on or off the track. Every dog shows in his body language if he is on the line or on a distraction. Our training helps us to understand the dog and, with that knowledge, it is easy to control him on real recovery. The most important thing is that I train as often as possible - normally every day. Because the dog is working for his daily food.
 
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