Reloading and lead...THIS IS NOT A VEHICLE FOR PERSONAL INSULTS BTW!

[enfieldspares]

What further needs to be taken on by those that claim to be a "voice for shooting" is the possible knock on effect on reloading and the possession or value of such tools.

1) At a best case things may remain unchanged and stay the same for pistol, rifle, shotgun reloading. Save that some powder makers will not bother to produce data for non-lead bulleted cartridges or non-lead shot shotshells. For sure the old loading manuals will become redundant. I doubt also that such data will be made available for discontinued powders such as H414 and Etc.. The Lyman "Cast Bullets Handbook", RCBS #10 Manual and Etc, will be fit only for levelling the short leg on a "wonky" table.

2) Certainly moulds, sizing dies, lubrisizer machines, lead melting furnaces, bullet lubricant "sticks", bullet swaging equipment for home production of lead bullets and lead shot trickler short drop machines may become redundant and unsaleable. If you can no longer legally use such what is the value of equipment that has absolutely no use but to make bullets of lead of containing lead or to make lead shot?

3) Reloading may be banned maybe on the belief that "some shooters are circumventing the ban by "making their own bullets or shot" and then "loading their own ammunition with lead bullets or lead shot" and I fear that there WILL be calls for this from the usual suspects that are opposed to shooting.

So I hope that input needs NOW to be made about compensation for such things and that compensation must be from the public purse as with the handgun ban in 1996.

I am not a member of BASC but of the CPSA. Those who are members of BASC and Etc, will, I hope ask the question of those organisations as I will be doing of CPSA as to what input they will make regarding home reloading.

 

[Mike L]

Please do let us know the reply from the CPSA?

 

[enfieldspares]

Please do let us know the reply from the CPSA?

I will!

 

[paul o']

Good luck with getting a "take it to the bank" reply from any Org as none will stick there heads on the line and be the real voice of shooters shooting!
We Stopped shooting lead cast bullets 230 gr 45ACP in the 80's when using them on the indoor ranges gave you lead gas poisoning! Leicester gunclub was the worst in the old mill .There was no H&S back then

 

[long_range_rob]

So if the ban home loading how do I get factory ammunition for my 6mm PPC? This should all be brought to attention during the “consultation” process.

 

[baguio]

What further needs to be taken on by those that claim to be a "voice for shooting" is the possible knock on effect on reloading and the possession or value of such tools.

1) At a best case things may remain unchanged and stay the same for pistol, rifle, shotgun reloading. Save that some powder makers will not bother to produce data for non-lead bulleted cartridges or non-lead shot shotshells. For sure the old loading manuals will become redundant. I doubt also that such data will be made available for discontinued powders such as H414 and Etc.. The Lyman "Cast Bullets Handbook", RCBS #10 Manual and Etc, will be fit only for levelling the short leg on a "wonky" table.

2) Certainly moulds, sizing dies, lubrisizer machines, lead melting furnaces, bullet lubricant "sticks", bullet swaging equipment for home production of lead bullets and lead shot trickler short drop machines may become redundant and unsaleable. If you can no longer legally use such what is the value of equipment that has absolutely no use but to make bullets of lead of containing lead or to make lead shot?

3) Reloading may be banned maybe on the belief that "some shooters are circumventing the ban by "making their own bullets or shot" and then "loading their own ammunition with lead bullets or lead shot" and I fear that there WILL be calls for this from the usual suspects that are opposed to shooting.

So I hope that input needs NOW to be made about compensation for such things and that compensation must be from the public purse as with the handgun ban in 1996.

I am not a member of BASC but of the CPSA. Those who are members of BASC and Etc, will, I hope ask the question of those organisations as I will be doing of CPSA as to what input they will make regarding home reloading.

It's like reading an article written by the Daily Fail Mail. No factual information at all but simply hearsay. Borrrrrrrrrrrrring!
I know a lot of Clay shooters and shoot a few myself. I don't know one who loads his/her own cartridges. The CPSA will not give a damn. Cartridge/bullet makers will do what they want and don't need the CPSA, BASC or anyone telling them what to do. If you're not a member of BASC you have a nerve to expect them to speak up on your behalf too.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

So if the ban home loading how do I get factory ammunition for my 6mm PPC? This should all be brought to attention during the “consultation” process.

I doubt that will happen, they will stop the sale of lead projectiles.

I can not see how they can police what stock of lead projectiles people have , unless they ask you to surrender them.

That on its own will be a logistical nightmare!

It is far from clear to see how this is going to pan out!

 

[Liveonce]

I doubt that will happen, they will stop the sale of lead projectiles.

I can not see how they can police what stock of lead projectiles people have , unless they ask you to surrender them.

That on its own will be a logistical nightmare!

It is far from clear to see how this is going to pan out!

indeed but if they stop the sale of lead projectiles it still allowed for casting lead bullets or as quite a few do making lead shot.

however it will be illegal to use lead, so if somehow caught using them you could be fined and would probably lose your firearms licence/s.

Policing it will be the issue, especially on individuals rather than in a Club environment.


Their has been in the recent past consideration to further control of components.

Controls on possession of component parts of ammunition: impact assessment (accessible version)

www.gov.uk

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

indeed but if they stop the sale of lead projectiles it still allowed for casting lead bullets or as quite a few do making lead shot.

however it will be illegal to use lead, so if somehow caught using them you could be fined and would probably lose your firearms licence/s.

Policing it will be the issue, especially on individuals rather than in a Club environment.

If you are shooting for your own freezer and keep your gob shut, who is going to know?

But the policing will be a nightmare!

 

[Magnificent 7]

If you are shooting for your own freezer and keep your gob shut, who is going to know?

But the policing will be a nightmare!

As if the police haven’t enough to do they struggle policing now let alone chasing up some lads shooting a few bits for the freezer I’d say

 

[308tikka]

So if the ban home loading how do I get factory ammunition for my 6mm PPC? This should all be brought to attention during the “consultation” process.

You wont.

 

[enfieldspares]

There are to my knowledge still commercial bullet casting businesses in the UK such as the excellent G M Bullets. For pistol calibre cartridges loaded with lead bullets are used in Winchester. Rossi, Marlin lever action carbines. I don't know of any non-lead (that is ALL non-lead) flat point factory loaded rounds in .38 or .44 or .45 and of no bullets sold separately that are all non-lead that have that flat point needed in carbines with tubular magazines.

 

[Liveonce]

Collectively their has been a lot of good constructive comments on the forum which if taken on board by the powers that be would engage with us the shooters who‘s trust and support they need to ensure compliance and we need a future for the sport.

My recommendations would be not that they listen to me.

legal ban on the use of lead shot for live quarry by 2025 excluding .410 and 28gauge.
legal ban on the use of lead bullets for live quarry by 2025 excluding .22lr and airgun
Then a review in 2025 and every three (or five) years going forward as new options come to market to then widen the ban if practical.

It would be up to game shoots to ensure only non toxic shot is used if their game is sold to game dealers,
which is generally the large shoots so they could supply the cartridges to the guns.

The risk to the environment and public health from ranges and clay ground is insignificant, after all its difficult to eat a target or clay pigeon, and they operate in a very limited area.

This would give the biggest win to start with, is workable (yes with some pain) and Rome was not built in a day.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Collectively their has been a lot of good constructive comments on the forum which if taken on board by the powers that be would engage with us the shooters who‘s trust and support they need to ensure compliance and we need a future for the sport.

My recommendations would be not that they listen to me.

legal ban on the use of lead shot for live quarry by 2025 excluding .410 and 28gauge.
legal ban on the use of lead bullets for live quarry by 2025 excluding .22lr and airgun
Then a review in 2025 and every three (or five) years going forward as new options come to market to then widen the ban if practical.

It would be up to game shoots to ensure only non toxic shot is used if their game is sold to game dealers,
which is generally the large shoots so they could supply the cartridges to the guns.

The risk to the environment and public health from ranges and clay ground is insignificant, after all its difficult to eat a target or clay pigeon, and they operate in a very limited area.

This would give the biggest win to start with, is workable (yes with some pain) and Roman was not built in a day.

I wouldn't so much mind the ban on quarry if that's what they really want... It's the target element I despise.

I already use steel with the shotgun so it's no drama and I'll have to 'bite the lead free bullet' and use lead free for deer/fox... I won't be shooting steel though at the price of none toxic

 

[Miki]

I know a lot of Clay shooters and shoot a few myself. <snip>

That's already banned ...

 

[Apthorpe]

The standard response to the fact that practicable alternatives to lead shot don't exist for a lot of guns is that they should bismuth as a sustainable alternative. However, bismuth is not a sustainable alternative because it simply does not exist in sufficient quantity, where it does exist it is ordered as a by product of lead production. You cannot have bismuth ammunition without producing lead. Worse still, the large majority of the world's supply of bismuth is produced by the most environmentally damaging economics. It is NOT an improvement, it is not available at scale, and it is fairly probable that it won't be available at all in future.
Whose head is in the sand?

 

[timbrayford]

So if the ban home loading how do I get factory ammunition for my 6mm PPC? This should all be brought to attention during the “consultation” process.

There don't appear to be any such proposals from UK REACH

 

[countrryboy]

Collectively their has been a lot of good constructive comments on the forum which if taken on board by the powers that be would engage with us the shooters who‘s trust and support they need to ensure compliance and we need a future for the sport.

My recommendations would be not that they listen to me.

legal ban on the use of lead shot for live quarry by 2025 excluding .410 and 28gauge.
legal ban on the use of lead bullets for live quarry by 2025 excluding .22lr and airgun
Then a review in 2025 and every three (or five) years going forward as new options come to market to then widen the ban if practical.

It would be up to game shoots to ensure only non toxic shot is used if their game is sold to game dealers,
which is generally the large shoots so they could supply the cartridges to the guns.

The risk to the environment and public health from ranges and clay ground is insignificant, after all its difficult to eat a target or clay pigeon, and they operate in a very limited area.

This would give the biggest win to start with, is workable (yes with some pain) and Rome was not built in a day.

To be honest i doubt many folk would argue too much with wot u propose there, makes lot of sense, possible u could argue slightly to roll back the timing an extra year or 2 but at end of the day a fairly workable commonsense solution.

And that is its down fall it is a workable solution, the real driving force behind this are the antis, they have pushed the agenda from the start.
Ur proposal fails on there 2 main goals, its not restricting live quarry shooting enough and if its not impacting on target, air rifles or clays its not making legal gun ownership harder and more difficult.

Very little real thought has went into it and many orgs/bodies/quangos will just jump on the band wagon now and basc are not in a position to fight it

Following on from apthrope post, even with steel ammo where is it all going to come from and and wot price??
Most steel stockholders any price u get now is only guaranteed for a 24hr window as prices rising so fast and often.

The boilers makers at the bottom of valley have never been as busy got next 3 yrs work almost fully booked already with more coming in yet are on about paying staff off and working reduced hours as they simply can't get enough steel.
Nothing about the changeover is just as simple as made out

The effects of lead shot on either humans or the environment have been massive exaggerated to suit the antis agenda.
I mind i spent 1 summer digging stinking sediment samples of shooting ponds for my dissertation many years ago, ponds been shot fairly heavily (on a driven day 100 head of each pond was not unusual and i was there 1 day they shot 200 of 1 pond in 1 drive, so a bit of lead flying about) for a long time.
Yet riddling all these samples of stinking pond sediment i never found a single pellet.
Granted the amount of sample u can take at each pond is limited when doing all the work urself
When i analyised the lead content in the water, i also had to dry some of the sample from each pond to get the lead concentration of the sediment too, the fact they were shot or not made absolutley no difference 1 of my control ponds never been shot had almost the highest pb concentrations so due far more to soil and geology of the area than lead shot.
On dry land i think the whole thing is 1 big scam, esp with modern diets no one is eating enough game for it to be relevant.

it was a different story with wildfowl as they were actually actively hunting out and ingesting the lead as quite often the lead pellets were a similar size to there food sources and the pellets where lying in there feeding areas too

Be interesting to see if any side effects from using the larger shot sizes, might not be so bad with 4s for steel, but if ur on a high bird shoot were already using 3's and 4's ur down to almost BB size shot, i imagine that would be big enough to get stuck in the riddles in combines being similar or larger than the grain ur harvesting or stuck in the leaves of some vegetables.

 

[Liveonce]

The standard response to the fact that practicable alternatives to lead shot don't exist for a lot of guns is that they should bismuth as a sustainable alternative. However, bismuth is not a sustainable alternative because it simply does not exist in sufficient quantity, where it does exist it is ordered as a by product of lead production. You cannot have bismuth ammunition without producing lead. Worse still, the large majority of the world's supply of bismuth is produced by the most environmentally damaging economics. It is NOT an improvement, it is not available at scale, and it is fairly probable that it won't be available at all in future.
Whose head is in the sand?

Not Bismuth, but as a rare-earth metal you can see how it will go, certainly could not call it “sustainable ammunition” and at the price it is it is not a practical replacement for lead.

The perfect storm increasing the cost of a crucial metal

Nickel is essential for batteries and stainless steel but suppliers are struggling to meet demand.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Dunwaters]

If your regulations are based on the EU proposals then the “ sale, use or possession” of lead cartridges or bullets will be banned after the transition date unless theres a specific exemption and since the ban is being introduced on environmental grounds there will be a presumption against granting one.
So post transition date you’ll most likely be forbidden to make or have lead ammo in your possession unless you’ve got an exemption.
If you read through the numerous posts on other threads one of the most common arguments is that theres no alternative to lead for X, Y and Z use. I suspect that we’re going to have to find one in most cases, a ban riddled with exemptions would be completely ineffective.
Currently missing from the debate is the use of lead fishing weights, the EU proposes to ban these too except for commercial users, any such proposals from your HSE?