.308 Barnes TTSX 130g - best speed?

[EckyP243]

Hi Folks - I’ve worked up a few loads in my Tikka T3x CTR in .308, 20 inch (510cm barrel) and I’m happy with all three loads (roe and reds) so looking for views on which one to use?

Do you use the fast, medium or ‘slow’? All have been chrono’d - all consistent speeds and all three good Points of Impact.

1. 2765 fps/843 m/sec (low recoil)
2. 2806/855 (also fine)
3. 2843/866 (perceived recoil but nothing worrying at all really)

There are cost considerations there are terminal ballistic and expansion at speed considerations and no doubt others but would like repo sea based on narrow scope/approach above. I am shooting normal distances (normally under 200 m). Powder I’ll exclude if that’s okay as for me it’s irrelevant at this stage.

Thoughts please?

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

You should be able to get much higher velocities IME.

I would be aiming for 3000 FPS plus.
I’m at 3050 FPS with N140 at an accuracy node, but N135 is generally considered a better powder for it.

(Mine is 20” barrel too)

This will give better knock down power for reds and isn’t messy with roe.

Ben

 

[Uncas]

I would think the difference between 3050 and 2850 fps at 200 would not be worth bothering about.
It would be a lot nicer to shoot and will do anything out to 300 yards.

 

[Mike L]

47.1 grains of N140 gives me 2850 in T3x .308

 

[paulbshooting]

I couldn't get above 3000 fps with N140 and not being a massively experienced reloader didn't fancy a compressed load. Went N135 instead and somewhere above 3100 fps (need to find my notes). I also had an issue and loss of confidence with the 130 grn so swapped to 110's. Shoots great on those with N135, out to 250m on deer. I don't shoot long range.

 

[308tikka]

I doubt you will get 3000fps from a factory 20” barrel...

2850 is fine.

You need to look at velocity at expected stalking distance. Are you shooting over 300yds away?

Id expect all of those loads to perform at common stalking distances.

 

[wytonpjs]

I'm getting 2915 out of my compressed IMR4895 load with this bullet out of both my 20" S20 and T3X and its performed very satisfactorily on red, roe and muntjac so option 3 but you need to use whichever gives you the best results and confidence.

 

[Selous]

If it were me I would push harder and aim for 3000fps. I have managed it in all of the 308 rifles I have worked up loads for using the 130g TTSX. The difference you may see is where bullets start to pencil through at longer ranges. If you start one bullet at 3000fps and another at 2850 then at 300m your terminal velocity will be in the region of 2148 and 2014 fps according to Applied Ballistics app. The general concensus seems to be to keep terminal velocity above 2200fps for reliable expansion with the TTSX bullets. As you can see both have dropped below that threshold but I would bet that the faster bullet will still expand better at any range. Velocity is what helps them to expand!

 

[JH83]

46g of N135 gives 3000fps with the 130g TTSX in my 20” barrel sako. No complaints at all with performance, doesn’t blow roe up at close range, performs as expected on reds.

 

[Bowland blades]

Ok , speeding the load up will do nothing for you under those parameters of use. You should use the one that proves most accurate at your self imposed and entirely sensible 200 yard limit .
yes a good 308 can be pushed but in stalking we use wet guns and never want a stiff bolt lift , indeed needing a fast bolt operation id preferable if you want to shoot multiple beasts in short succession. perhaps to fix an odd mistake .
what i would do however is play around within your high and low and find the most accurate node ( with the widest tolerance) this is of real use to you in the loading room and is worth the time and cost .
Having another 150 fps is meaningless at 200 yards you will just have a marginally more expensive load and a shorter barrel life , not vast but present . Oh like i say more chance of a hot one giving you a stiff bolt opening that can cost a second shot one day .
btw i placed well regular shooting 140 grain 308 scenar at 2850 fps up to 1000 yards .

 

[25 Sharps]

Everyone talking about a 200 or so yard limit, what if the shot goes wrong and you need a second fast follow up at 250-350 yards?

 

[25 Sharps]

From what I’ve read and been told about the barnes’ bullets, including by people I shoot with, speed is important. I’d be changing powder and pushing for a bit more speed or at least use the fastest load you have, can’t be much recoil from a 130 gr .308 sun 3000 fps

 

[Bowland blades]

From what I’ve read and been told about the barnes’ bullets, including by people I shoot with, speed is important. I’d be changing powder and pushing for a bit more speed or at least use the fastest load you have, can’t be much recoil from a 130 gr .308 sun 3000 fps

With respect that is partially true but you could stretch that 200 yard to 300 and still have plenty . If it was traveling 2500 fps at the muzzle it would still do a dambed fine job 2800 is not slow for a 308 most 150 -155 lead bullets will be 2750-2900 fps and most 125 grn will be touching only near to 3000 fps . Wonder where factory comes to over a chrono on copper factory ? i would bet it wont be a meaning full amount over when actually run over a chronograph

 

[25 Sharps]

With respect that is partially true but you could stretch that 200 yard to 300 and still have plenty . If it was traveling 2500 fps at the muzzle it would still do a dambed fine job 2800 is not slow for a 308 most 150 -155 lead bullets will be 2750-2900 fps and most 125 grn will be touching only near to 3000 fps . Wonder where factory comes to over a chrono on copper factory ? i would bet it wont be a meaning full amount over when actually run over a chronograph

My comment is based on a minimum impact velocity of 2200 for reliable expansion.

Running at 2800 at the muzzle you reach that at around 260 yards


Using your example of 2500 at the muzzle you can’t even get to 150 yards at 2200 fps, by 300 yards you’re down to 1814 fps and very questionable expansion.



As for running copper over a chrono, I ran some S&B 110 and it only made 2520 fps, not deer legal.

The geco copper was closer to the factory quoted 2850 for from my 26” barrel so nearly 1000 ft-lb more. The importance there being the geco is a fragmenting bullet so expands at lower velocity than the ttsx

 

[NullMac]

I think you are a bit slow. Should be fairly easy to get closer to 3000fps. Recoil is still low but it gives you some reserve puff if it runs. With TTSX mine have all run unacceptably unless they get banged in the shoulder or other instant kill zone.

Up to you but it’s hunting so you can trade mv for some accuracy. Still plenty accurate enough

 

[EckyP243]

The powder I’m using is Vit N133 (don’t ask). My third load is 41.5 grains which gives me 2843/866 in my .308 Tikka T3x CTR.

The recommended (dare I go here...) max is 41.7 grains. At 41.5 I have NO signs of pressure. Recoil not even worth talking about as folks have previously alluded to so no issues there.

IF - please note a conceptual big big IF. I was wanting more speed. Has anyone taken N133 past 41.7 in their Tikka T3x CTR?

Thanks
Alex

 

[Bowland blades]

My comment is based on a minimum impact velocity of 2200 for reliable expansion.

Running at 2800 at the muzzle you reach that at around 260 yards
View attachment 260439

Using your example of 2500 at the muzzle you can’t even get to 150 yards at 2200 fps, by 300 yards you’re down to 1814 fps and very questionable expansion.

View attachment 260440

As for running copper over a chrono, I ran some S&B 110 and it only made 2520 fps, not deer legal.

The geco copper was closer to the factory quoted 2850 for from my 26” barrel so nearly 1000 ft-lb more. The importance there being the geco is a fragmenting bullet so expands at lower velocity than the ttsx

if your expansion to figure is correct , not sure on that because i run at 3200 but with a 100 grain 6.5mm TTSX and i assure you it expands fine at a lot further than the OPs 200 yards.
big points here is 1. 308 ammo of the normal weight will struggle to reach 3000 fps at reasonable pressure pressure 2. We are talking about 200 yards and folks are suggesting 200 fps is going to make any tangible difference ? !
Well i have only used 6.5 mm handloads and .270 factory Barnes copper bullets but on a fair old number of deer but i seriously doubt (200 fps) is gonna make any difference . Mind you lets remember that commenting will not have used barnes copper on deer at all or any meaningful number

 

[25 Sharps]

if your expansion to figure is correct , not sure on that because i run at 3200 but with a 100 grain 6.5mm TTSX and i assure you it expands fine at a lot further than the OPs 200 yards.
big points here is 1. 308 ammo of the normal weight will struggle to reach 3000 fps at reasonable pressure pressure 2. We are talking about 200 yards and folks are suggesting 200 fps is going to make any tangible difference ? !
Well i have only used 6.5 mm handloads and .270 factory Barnes copper bullets but on a fair old number of deer but i seriously doubt (200 fps) is gonna make any difference . Mind you lets remember that commenting will not have used barnes copper on deer at all or any meaningful number

By all accounts barnes used to quite 2000 fps but this has now been removed, 2200 fps seems to be the consensus from those who use them. With most people who use them a lot, @bravo echo niner & @srvet for example, recommending a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps.

I am not using them yet, though now have an 80 gr load for the 25 sharps at 3140 fps for the roe this year.

As for 200 fps not making a difference, there will always be a tipping point from good expansion to poor, 200 fps will simply push that further out which can never be a bad thing!

Your load expanding further out probes the point!

At 3200 your base line means you don’t drop below the 2200 limit until 400 yards…..



Drop that bullet to 2700 at the muzzle and you shorten that by 190 yards, so 500 fps difference is halving your effective range!

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

if your expansion to figure is correct , not sure on that because i run at 3200 but with a 100 grain 6.5mm TTSX and i assure you it expands fine at a lot further than the OPs 200 yards.
big points here is 1. 308 ammo of the normal weight will struggle to reach 3000 fps at reasonable pressure pressure 2. We are talking about 200 yards and folks are suggesting 200 fps is going to make any tangible difference ? !
Well i have only used 6.5 mm handloads and .270 factory Barnes copper bullets but on a fair old number of deer but i seriously doubt (200 fps) is gonna make any difference . Mind you lets remember that commenting will not have used barnes copper on deer at all or any meaningful number

I have to say I agree with @25 Sharps

Having used Barnes offerings a lot (hand loaded in 6.5,7mm and .30) I have to say I disagree with your points.

1) .308 ammo of ‘normal weight’ will struggle to meet 3000 FPS

That has not been the case in any rifle I have seen loads worked up for, with multiple 20” barrels being the standard, with N135 I am yet to see a barrel that doesn’t have an accuracy node (below max pressure) over 2950FPS with the majority seeming to have one 3025-3050 off memory or even higher. Even Barnes Vortex ammo when it was tested out of a 20” barrel was chronographing at 2950ish.

2) 200 FPS will not make much of a difference.

In the OPs example he would have an estimated 85m less effective max range as a result of dropping that velocity. (225m rather than 310m), based off AB using a 2200FPS minimum velocity for reasonable expansion.
This minimum velocity has been quoted many times by various people and I have tested down to this. For longer shots where terminal velocities are lower I choose to pin it through the shoulder to promote expansion but even still at 2200 FPS you can start to see the wound channel is narrowing somewhat, I would certainly be cautious about pushing it much below that 2200FPS threshold.


So in conclusion, yes the OP can use his loads out to 200m and he shouldn’t see any issues within that, however at 225m+ you are starting to push the boundaries of where the bullet will perform. While the intention may not be to shoot further it is always useful to have the tools to do so incase a follow up shot is needed.

I carry some Virtus Precision Merlin hand loads which I will take 350m+ shots in my .308 with for that very reason, it’s not something I plan on taking with that specific rifle (based on setup scope etc) but it’s better to be prepared than caught unaware.

Ben

 

[Bowland blades]

I have to say I agree with @25 Sharps

Having used Barnes offerings a lot (hand loaded in 6.5,7mm and .30) I have to say I disagree with your points.

1) .308 ammo of ‘normal weight’ will struggle to meet 3000 FPS

That has not been the case in any rifle I have seen loads worked up for, with multiple 20” barrels being the standard, with N135 I am yet to see a barrel that doesn’t have an accuracy node (below max pressure) over 2950FPS with the majority seeming to have one 3025-3050 off memory or even higher. Even Barnes Vortex ammo when it was tested out of a 20” barrel was chronographing at 2950ish.

2) 200 FPS will not make much of a difference.

In the OPs example he would have an estimated 85m less effective max range as a result of dropping that velocity. (225m rather than 310m), based off AB using a 2200FPS minimum velocity for reasonable expansion.
This minimum velocity has been quoted many times by various people and I have tested down to this. For longer shots where terminal velocities are lower I choose to pin it through the shoulder to promote expansion but even still at 2200 FPS you can start to see the wound channel is narrowing somewhat, I would certainly be cautious about pushing it much below that 2200FPS threshold.


So in conclusion, yes the OP can use his loads out to 200m and he shouldn’t see any issues within that, however at 225m+ you are starting to push the boundaries of where the bullet will perform. While the intention may not be to shoot further it is always useful to have the tools to do so incase a follow up shot is needed.

I carry some Virtus Precision Merlin hand loads which I will take 350m+ shots in my .308 with for that very reason, it’s not something I plan on taking with that specific rifle (based on setup scope etc) but it’s better to be prepared than caught unaware.

Ben

Fact remains that on checking 4 reloading guides few 308 loads in this weight class actually break 3000 fps and those that do dont pass it by much .
I will not say impact speed does not matter with copper as it does . i use 100 grain 6.5mm ttsx at 3200 fps extensively and the expansion is different as i stretch beyond 300 yards but none the less it does still produce 4 turned over petals / blades ( ok a lighter and faster bullet and a 6.5 )
The OP i feel however is 100% correct to stay safe , i have seen enough bolts opened with the mallet and pierced primers during my competitive days to realize the folly that extra bit of speed and paper punchers pack in and return to the club house when it sarts raining .
A 200 max range and 200 fps from top end loads is an eminently sensible choice and more stalkers think they can shoot 300 yards humanely than actually can anyhow. Wet chambers etc must be in the mix when selecting a hunting load and to advise folks to push things further is unwise .
will it work if a beast runs another 100 yards after the shot ? I am sure it will ! Stretch the shooting range to 300 and then i do feel we have issues when something fails drop and makes that 100 yard . This is of course not an ammo problem just an ethics and said 200 fps muzzle velocity won,t be 200 fps anymore right
copper just like steel shot is brilliant but there is a definite wall hit in a small window from perfect to dodgy and no 200 fps ( AT THE MUZZLE) remember that " at the muzzle" is going to fix that . if muzzle velocity has dropped to 2/3 so has the 200 fps so we are talking 2/3 of the 200 fps we got at the muzzle right ? 133 fps Big deal! wonder if it would even hurt a great deal to be hit by that ? I doubt it would be the deciding factor for a Big Hill stag dropping or not compared to the what 2000 fps like ? twice as fast as a .22 sub and three times the mass
Oh BTW our American Cousins Kill a mass of deer with (muzzle) velocities of 2100-2400 fps with 130 grain bullet from thier 30-30 winchester