.308 Barnes TTSX 130g - best speed?

[25 Sharps]

L

Fact remains that on checking 4 reloading guides few 308 loads in this weight class actually break 3000 fps and those that do dont pass it by much .
I will not say impact speed does not matter with copper as it does . i use 100 grain 6.5mm ttsx at 3200 fps extensively and the expansion is different as i stretch beyond 300 yards but none the less it does still produce 4 turned over petals / blades ( ok a lighter and faster bullet and a 6.5 )
The OP i feel however is 100% correct to stay safe , i have seen enough bolts opened with the mallet and pierced primers during my competitive days to realize the folly that extra bit of speed and paper punchers pack in and return to the club house when it sarts raining .
A 200 max range and 200 fps from top end loads is an eminently sensible choice and more stalkers think they can shoot 300 yards humanely than actually can anyhow. Wet chambers etc must be in the mix when selecting a hunting load and to advise folks to push things further is unwise .
will it work if a beast runs another 100 yards after the shot ? I am sure it will ! Stretch the shooting range to 300 and then i do feel we have issues when something fails drop and makes that 100 yard . This is of course not an ammo problem just an ethics and said 200 fps muzzle velocity won,t be 200 fps anymore right
copper just like steel shot is brilliant but there is a definite wall hit in a small window from perfect to dodgy and no 200 fps ( AT THE MUZZLE) remember that " at the muzzle" is going to fix that . if muzzle velocity has dropped to 2/3 so has the 200 fps so we are talking 2/3 of the 200 fps we got at the muzzle right ? 133 fps Big deal! wonder if it would even hurt a great deal to be hit by that ? I doubt it would be the deciding factor for a Big Hill stag dropping or not compared to the what 2000 fps like ? twice as fast as a .22 sub and three times the mass
Oh BTW our American Cousins Kill a mass of deer with (muzzle) velocities of 2100-2400 fps with 130 grain bullet from thier 30-30 winchester

Right, but did he do it with a lead free bullet?

You need to expand your horizons past your 4 guides, 3000 fps plus is easily obtainable with a 125/130 gr bullet. Hodgdon list several powders available in the uk (uk 2460 equivalent is loved DO73.5 use their data if developing a load ), that’s without looking at then REACH affected powders.

AA2460, Tac, exterminator & CFE223 achieving 3195 to 3208 fps with a 130 gr TTSX.

Nosler take it further with a 125

Yes, data is for 24” barrels but the loss of 4” isn’t going to lose you 200 fps. Essentially there’s plenty of powders in the N130-135 burn rate range powders that will do the job of 3000 fps from a and do it safely from a 20” barrel.

Drop your 100 gr load to 2800 fps and report back to us on whether it makes a difference or not!

 

[User00040]

My reccomended course of action:

 

[25 Sharps]

I have to say I agree with @25 Sharps

Having used Barnes offerings a lot (hand loaded in 6.5,7mm and .30) I have to say I disagree with your points.

1) .308 ammo of ‘normal weight’ will struggle to meet 3000 FPS

That has not been the case in any rifle I have seen loads worked up for, with multiple 20” barrels being the standard, with N135 I am yet to see a barrel that doesn’t have an accuracy node (below max pressure) over 2950FPS with the majority seeming to have one 3025-3050 off memory or even higher. Even Barnes Vortex ammo when it was tested out of a 20” barrel was chronographing at 2950ish.

2) 200 FPS will not make much of a difference.

In the OPs example he would have an estimated 85m less effective max range as a result of dropping that velocity. (225m rather than 310m), based off AB using a 2200FPS minimum velocity for reasonable expansion.
This minimum velocity has been quoted many times by various people and I have tested down to this. For longer shots where terminal velocities are lower I choose to pin it through the shoulder to promote expansion but even still at 2200 FPS you can start to see the wound channel is narrowing somewhat, I would certainly be cautious about pushing it much below that 2200FPS threshold.


So in conclusion, yes the OP can use his loads out to 200m and he shouldn’t see any issues within that, however at 225m+ you are starting to push the boundaries of where the bullet will perform. While the intention may not be to shoot further it is always useful to have the tools to do so incase a follow up shot is needed.

I carry some Virtus Precision Merlin hand loads which I will take 350m+ shots in my .308 with for that very reason, it’s not something I plan on taking with that specific rifle (based on setup scope etc) but it’s better to be prepared than caught unaware.

Ben

Out if interest do you not use the virtue as a rule closer in because of damage?

Had a buddy down for a few stalks last weekend, he managed 3 roe bucks, all shot with virtus, performance was good, though ranges were 50-90 yards. He asked is we could chrono and turned out they were doing 2675 fps average. Petals were recovered from all 3 deer so they are doing the job.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Hi Folks - I’ve worked up a few loads in my Tikka T3x CTR in .308, 20 inch (510cm barrel) and I’m happy with all three loads (roe and reds) so looking for views on which one to use?

Do you use the fast, medium or ‘slow’? All have been chrono’d - all consistent speeds and all three good Points of Impact.

1. 2765 fps/843 m/sec (low recoil)
2. 2806/855 (also fine)
3. 2843/866 (perceived recoil but nothing worrying at all really)

There are cost considerations there are terminal ballistic and expansion at speed considerations and no doubt others but would like repo sea based on narrow scope/approach above. I am shooting normal distances (normally under 200 m). Powder I’ll exclude if that’s okay as for me it’s irrelevant at this stage.

Thoughts please?

Where on the body do you shoot?
TTSX are not predictable for expansion on lower terminal velocity shots (either lower MV or increased range) on textbook heart lung placement. Those shots that have a rib at most as a harder substrate to initiate expansion.

If they were more predictable we wouldn’t have just done a deal to swap hundreds from a major agency due to the number of runners they were getting….

If you shoulder shoot then the higher density target area of bone will assist in opening the bullet
But there is no substitute for raw velocity

Stoke them up

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Out if interest do you not use the virtue as a rule closer in because of damage?

Had a buddy down for a few stalks last weekend, he managed 3 roe bucks, all shot with virtus, performance was good, though ranges were 50-90 yards. He asked is we could chrono and turned out they were doing 2675 fps average. Petals were recovered from all 3 deer so they are doing the job.

Pretty much, that rifle is used almost exclusively for woodland so the majority of shots are 0-100m. I find the 130 TTSX perfect for lower damage within 300m and have the Virtus Merlin there for longer range shots where appropriate (lucky the rifle shoots same POI with both loads).
I suspect if I changed to the Virtus Osprey I wouldn’t have an issue, but given how many TTSXs I have I have no reason to change yet!

I just find on open ground I reach for my .300, which is better setup for reaching out more.

Horses for courses.

Ben

 

[Bowland blades]

L

Right, but did he do it with a lead free bullet?

You need to expand your horizons past your 4 guides, 3000 fps plus is easily obtainable with a 125/130 gr bullet. Hodgdon list several powders available in the uk (uk 2460 equivalent is loved DO73.5 use their data if developing a load ), that’s without looking at then REACH affected powders.

AA2460, Tac, exterminator & CFE223 achieving 3195 to 3208 fps with a 130 gr TTSX.

Nosler take it further with a 125 View attachment 260576

Yes, data is for 24” barrels but the loss of 4” isn’t going to lose you 200 fps. Essentially there’s plenty of powders in the N130-135 burn rate range powders that will do the job of 3000 fps from a and do it safely from a 20” barrel.

Drop your 100 gr load to 2800 fps and report back to us on whether it makes a difference or not!

Max loads are not a target to achieve in a loading manual , they are ones they are saying should be treated as maximum. Now i have explained in real terms what the extra striking velocity actually is on target ( forget muzzle velocity ) it makes the difference i have stated in my previous post the pathetic difference in speed once it reaches the beast and it certainly nothing of real use .
I have shot a fair old number of beasts with TTSX and again have already stated i have quite a growing collection of spent bullets after impacting deer.
The last thing a stalker needs though with a load is to have a stiff or hammer open the bolt if they make an error . In the field our ammo could be wet further raising pressures or substantially warmed by sun likewise . Seen this a good few times in my Comp days , the thought of it happening when i need to take multiple deer out a group puts me off ever playing hot . What i do however do ( and i dont advise this ) is take every load up to the point i get a stiffer bolt lift etc , because i do not want to be even close to it for the reasons above .
Please refer to how much extra impact speed is delivered on target by hitting 3000 fps at the muzzle.

 

[Cloudhopper]

With respect that is partially true but you could stretch that 200 yard to 300 and still have plenty . If it was traveling 2500 fps at the muzzle it would still do a dambed fine job 2800 is not slow for a 308 most 150 -155 lead bullets will be 2750-2900 fps and most 125 grn will be touching only near to 3000 fps . Wonder where factory comes to over a chrono on copper factory ? i would bet it wont be a meaning full amount over when actually run over a chronograph

Good question. I measured Barnes Vor-tx 130gr factory from my .308, 20 inch barrel Sako 85 at 2991, 2964 and 2953. Just for info on the same day I was getting 3039 and 3050 for Hornady 130gr SP over 46.5gr of N135.
CH

 

[Bowland blades]

Good question. I measured Barnes Vor-tx 130gr factory from my .308, 20 inch barrel Sako 85 at 2991, 2964 and 2953. Just for info on the same day I was getting 3039 and 3050 for Hornady 130gr SP over 46.5gr of N135.
CH

Firstly not at all sure what you are saying with this data to be fair . Faced with data like that i could only say on the face of things you have 100 fps difference between the fastest and slowest round which is not going to mean anything significant in itself when it gets to the beast and the factory rounds from Barnes are pretty consistent but three chrono data aint really much use with such a low round count ( though at the expense of factory and difficulties getting ammo ......).
How many deer have you shot with each ? what range ? how did the bullets perform going through your quarry ?

 

[Cloudhopper]

Firstly not at all sure what you are saying with this data to be fair . Faced with data like that i could only say on the face of things you have 100 fps difference between the fastest and slowest round which is not going to mean anything significant in itself when it gets to the beast and the factory rounds from Barnes are pretty consistent but three chrono data aint really much use with such a low round count ( though at the expense of factory and difficulties getting ammo ......).
How many deer have you shot with each ? what range ? how did the bullets perform going through your quarry ?

I've simply presented my data as typical for the Barnes factory offering using the 130grain TTSX. My rifle is similar to that of the OP so he can compare this data to his own. It will give him some idea of what's reasonable to expect and shows that he could probably increase the top end slightly without expecting any pressure signs. Sure it's a small data set, but it was fine for the ballistic app.
I've shot two hinds with the Barnes VOR-TX 130gr, at 270m. These distance was measured with the thermal LRF before the shots were taken. Both were heart shot and dropped pretty much on the spot. The bullets passed through and I don't recall any issues regarding bullet performance such as non-expansion. I was not too sure before but the use of factory non-lead was mandated. I have more confidence in them now.
CH

 

[25 Sharps]

Max loads are not a target to achieve in a loading manual , they are ones they are saying should be treated as maximum. Now i have explained in real terms what the extra striking velocity actually is on target ( forget muzzle velocity ) it makes the difference i have stated in my previous post the pathetic difference in speed once it reaches the beast and it certainly nothing of real use .
I have shot a fair old number of beasts with TTSX and again have already stated i have quite a growing collection of spent bullets after impacting deer.
The last thing a stalker needs though with a load is to have a stiff or hammer open the bolt if they make an error . In the field our ammo could be wet further raising pressures or substantially warmed by sun likewise . Seen this a good few times in my Comp days , the thought of it happening when i need to take multiple deer out a group puts me off ever playing hot . What i do however do ( and i dont advise this ) is take every load up to the point i get a stiffer bolt lift etc , because i do not want to be even close to it for the reasons above .
Please refer to how much extra impact speed is delivered on target by hitting 3000 fps at the muzzle.

3200 is the maximum for most of the loads posted above, nudging 3300 in the case of TAC and with the nosler data for 125s so how is achieving 3000 chasing the maximum?

You are also running your bullets at 3200 fps.

You don’t practice what you preach and you preach a load of rubbish.

As you were.

 

[Selous]

We got over 3100fps from a 20 inch tube with N135. Not a double based powder, no pressure signs, good case life… what’s not to like? I also have never found a bullet in a deer I have shot with the 130g TTSX at 3000fps. If you are finding lots of them perhaps you need to use more powder

 

[YoungGun]

Not a 308, but running 130 gr ttxs out of my 30-06 at about 3100. Guest shoot roe/muntjac at 40 yards and we might get a bit of a minced shoulder (no more that the cup core/sst/tipped loads). Confident with said load out to hill ranges (furthest red spiker was 290 and he ran 20 yards). Only thought is that you sometimes don't get the blood trail you get with softer lead bullets, but if you are confident I'm your strikes you will find them.

 

[Bowland blades]

3200 is the maximum for most of the loads posted above, nudging 3300 in the case of TAC and with the nosler data for 125s so how is achieving 3000 chasing the maximum?

You are also running your bullets at 3200 fps.

You don’t practice what you preach and you preach a load of rubbish.

As you were.

my bullets aint doing 3200 fps when they go clean through a red stag beyond 300 yards and break both shoulders . I refer back 300 fps muzzle velocity isnt 300 fps at the target. if someone was really bothered about 300 fps at the muzzle ( i certainly aint ) they could just lighten up the bullet chosen perhaps or choose a different brand . Have any of you figured out how little extra 250-300 fps really is when it reaches a 300 yard stag.
I do use a 100 grain bullet btw , haven't read what it wont do in theory though because i have real experiance of it doing exactly as i require out past 300 yards
wonder how much closer you need to get in for your 2800 fps bullets to work ?!

 

[25 Sharps]

my bullets aint doing 3200 fps when they go clean through a red stag beyond 300 yards and break both shoulders . I refer back 300 fps muzzle velocity isnt 300 fps at the target. if someone was really bothered about 300 fps at the muzzle ( i certainly aint ) they could just lighten up the bullet chosen perhaps or choose a different brand . Have any of you figured out how little extra 250-300 fps really is when it reaches a 300 yard stag.
I do use a 100 grain bullet btw , haven't read what it wont do in theory though because i have real experiance of it doing exactly as i require out past 300 yards
wonder how much closer you need to get in for your 2800 fps bullets to work ?!

I literally posted the comparative figures further up the thread.

For your load at 300 yards you are still at 2420 fps and 1301 ft-lb, slow that to 2800 at the muzzle you are at 2084 so below the optimal expansion velocity and 964 ft-lb. That’s a big difference and will certainly make a difference in terms of terminal ballistics. But you already know that which is why you run your bullets at 3200 fps.

You seem to think you are the only one to shoot the bullets yet there are plenty of others on the thread with field experience saying 3000 fps at the muzzle is better performance wise. You also claim people are chasing high pressure loads to achieve this with a .308 yet I have posted multiple examples of published load data showing this is only mid range.

Why are you still posting on the matter, do you just like to argue?

As I say, put your money where your mouth is, slow your bullets to 2800 and go shoot some deer at extended ranges if you’re so confident it makes no difference. Then report back.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I refer back 300 fps muzzle velocity isnt 300 fps at the target. if someone was really bothered about 300 fps at the muzzle ( i certainly aint ) they could just lighten up the bullet chosen perhaps or choose a different brand . Have any of you figured out how little extra 250-300 fps really is when it reaches a 300 yard stag.

Yes here is 250FPS difference - the difference when comparing 3000FPS MV and 2750FPS MV at 275m ( 300 yards in metres as that’s what you’re quoting) is 2253 - 2028, therefore a difference of 225 FPS on impact. (estimated using a Custom drag curve for the 130 TTSX in Applied ballistics)

Your earlier assumption it would be 2/3 the velocity or whatever so 2/3 the difference just doesn’t follow.

Now it’s well recorded this figure of 2200 FPS being where performance drops off with TTSX, given the info you’ve said you’d have to get to 365m (based off my drag curve I have for my own 6.5 using the 100 TTSX at 3201FPS) so further than you have taken deer with it based off what you’ve said so far. So given the example you’re referencing a 300 yard stag, you would have a Terminal Velocity estimated at 2434FPS according to that CDM. Hence you’re telling the OP to choose a load that will strike at 200m at a terminal velocity 100 FPS lower than that, lower still if he has to take a follow up shot beyond 200m.

The other point I will make is that we have dropped bullet weight, going from a 150 grain which is standard for a SP in a .308 to a 130 grain TTSX to gain velocity, hence as a common velocity for a 150 SP is 2800-2850 it doesn’t make much sense to run a 130 at that level?

Ben

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes here is 250FPS difference - the difference when comparing 3000FPS MV and 2750FPS MV at 275m ( 300 yards in metres as that’s what you’re quoting) is 2253 - 2028, therefore a difference of 225 FPS on impact. (estimated using a Custom drag curve for the 130 TTSX in Applied ballistics)

Your earlier assumption it would be 2/3 the velocity or whatever so 2/3 the difference just doesn’t follow.

Now it’s well recorded this figure of 2200 FPS being where performance drops off with TTSX, given the info you’ve said you’d have to get to 365m (based off my drag curve I have for my own 6.5 using the 100 TTSX at 3201FPS) so further than you have taken deer with it based off what you’ve said so far. So given the example you’re referencing a 300 yard stag, you would have a Terminal Velocity estimated at 2434FPS according to that CDM. Hence you’re telling the OP to choose a load that will strike at 200m at a terminal velocity 100 FPS lower than that, lower still if he has to take a follow up shot beyond 200m.

The other point I will make is that we have dropped bullet weight, going from a 150 grain which is standard for a SP in a .308 to a 130 grain TTSX to gain velocity, hence as a common velocity for a 150 SP is 2800-2850 it doesn’t make much sense to run a 130 at that level?

Ben

Well apparently because if you don’t you’ll have to take a hammer out with you to open the bolt if it rains.

(Ignoring the fact that hodgdon’s minimum loads above are giving between around 2950 and 3050 fps of course)

 

[JH83]

I literally posted the comparative figures further up the thread.

For your load at 300 yards you are still at 2420 fps and 1301 ft-lb, slow that to 2800 at the muzzle you are at 2084 so below the optimal expansion velocity and 964 ft-lb. That’s a big difference and will certainly make a difference in terms of terminal ballistics. But you already know that which is why you run your bullets at 3200 fps.

You seem to think you are the only one to shoot the bullets yet there are plenty of others on the thread with field experience saying 3000 fps at the muzzle is better performance wise. You also claim people are chasing high pressure loads to achieve this with a .308 yet I have posted multiple examples of published load data showing this is only mid range.

Why are you still posting on the matter, do you just like to argue?

As I say, put your money where your mouth is, slow your bullets to 2800 and go shoot some deer at extended ranges if you’re so confident it makes no difference. Then report back.

At this point you begin to realise @caberslash had a valid point

 

[25 Sharps]

At this point you begin to realise @caberslash had a valid point

Apparently so