Follow up to 243 with named mentor 26/6

[shudadunityonksago]

Right guys here goes , the named mentor placed on my ticket by lancashire has now been removed and now reads whilst under the supervision of an experienced stalker .

To reach this stage George Wallace of the NGO has written on my behalf 3 letters to them

I now have more freedom to get out and gain the experience that they require to lift this restriction and look to my level 2

It just goes to show if you stand up to them and fight for what you belive to be your rites then they will act .

 

[re'M'ington]

I'm sorry to break it to you bud,but it seems to me that there is hardly any difference,you still have to be a supervisor,did you realise that from the off you could of named as many mentors as you wanted to.Meaning straight away you would of been in the same boat as you are now,still,it sounds like you are happy enough so well done to you.

Martin

 

[widows son]

Right guys here goes , the named mentor placed on my ticket by lancashire has now been removed and now reads whilst under the supervision of an experienced stalker .
A experienced stalker mmmm.
To reach this stage George Wallace of the NGO has written on my behalf 3 letters to them

I now have more freedom to get out and gain the experience that they require to lift this restriction and look to my level 2
So what ground and rites have you gained nothing .
It just goes to show if you stand up to them and fight for what you belive to be your rites then they will act .

To have gained the rites you talk about above they would have removed any, if not all conditions on your certificate if your wording is correct they have put down experienced stalker instead of a named person ,it is still a joke .

Now if i or someone else was to give you a days stalking for you to gain the so valuable experience they wish you to have, can you legally transport a weapon and ammunition around the UK without committing a offence doesn't look like it ! Seems to me the system still has you by the balls .

 

[shudadunityonksago]

From the very outset , lancashire refused to lift the mentor situation , they said that going from rim to centre was a big jump and i have to prove that i am competent with it ,and in there words shot deer . I feel that doing it this way allows me more freedom and also gain the experience that i feel i need to progress to my l2 .

As for the carrying of a rifle up and down the country , if its on my ticket then surely i am legal ?

 

[widows son]

From the very outset , lancashire refused to lift the mentor situation , they said that going from rim to centre was a big jump and i have to prove that i am competent with it ,and in there words shot deer . I feel that doing it this way allows me more freedom and also gain the experience that i feel i need to progress to my l2 .

As for the carrying of a rifle up and down the country , if its on my ticket then surely i am legal ?

this has been a question i have ask others over a number of years "IF"your not allowed to use the weapon yourself how can you have it in your possession along with ammunition to travel to a destination legally without having with you a experienced supervisor with you .

the mentor rules are flawed in many ways, if you have to be supervised you should not be able to hold a weapon or ammunition in your property, where you have no supervision.
The police are contravening there own conditions .So if you do not have the said experience to use it unsupervised how does the law allow you to keep in in your property without the experience they require .

The whole system requires a revamp I wonder what our agencies such as BASC, SACS, NGO, etc are getting payed for what if they will not challenge, the issues above , which on this site alone raise there head, daily, weeklyand monthly all on the above subject.

It is about time the English stalkers stood up and be counted it seems to be the only place in the UK, that is being hammered over the mentor bilige ,and your all going with the flow ,it has now gained momentum, time the police forces started to work to the guidelines layed down, for them by the homeoffice and not what they make up .

The ball is at your foot .

 

[6pointer]

Got to agree with Widows son here while i do not like taking things to task or going to court this needs sorting as there is no defintion for a novice to follow.
How do they the police decide who is expearienced and who is not. Some one with lev two might have shot less deer than you so that cant be it.Some one might hold a Firearm Certificate for 5 years and only shoot 1 deer. I think i would be wanting to know what my Target was and why i had to follow such a rule. Even the police need stricked guide lines to work to and clear objectives .There is no reason why they cannot write them down for you.

 

[Si]

Are you allowed to zero without your mentor present?... I don't think he'd be too chuffed if you turned up on a stalk with an un-zero'd rifle and without any practice.

Ask your FEO that one

 

[Orion]

Not quite sure if I can see how someone with the dreaded 'mentor' condition wouldn't be able to lawfully transport his firearms and ammunition to and from stalking locations. The condition regulates the actual shooting of the firearm.

Doesn't the possession of the FAC itself provide the authority to possess no matter where you are? The condition relates to 'use' not possession. Otherwise we might all be in breach of conditions such as territorial ones containing named land or 'land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of police' - would we be in breach if we were transporting firearms outside of that land? Ditto for certificates conditioned for use on approved ranges, would the holder be liable to prosecution for transporting outside of those ranges?

Back to the 'mentoring' fiasco. I totally agree that one of the organisations should back the membership up and force the issue. All it would take is an otherwise experienced centrefire user who gets saddled with the mentoring crap for a deer legal calibre to take it up.

 

[shudadunityonksago]

This is by no means dead in the water ,
After having a long telephone conversation today with Widows Son i am taking his offer of help and advice and hope to have this condition removed asap .

I cant thank Bob enough , i was close to giving the whole stalking thing up and going back bunnie bashing .

Thanks again bob and i will take you up on your offer.

 

[NellyT]

Been reading this with interest, I have the same issue with Thames Valley, they have imposed the mentoring condition on me due to "lack of expewrience with the specific calibre". They resquested the mentors have an open ticket with that specific calibre, luckily I have two guys on the land I shoot who offered to be mentors. After speaking to the BASC it was pointed out that if I wanted to buy a days staliking somewhere, legally I could only use "MY" rifle if one of the named mentors was with me.....nuts I know. I have not bothered to get it changed yet but might do so out of principle now I have read this thread.

The other thing I wanted to ask was this "what is deemed a REASONABLE length of time to be mentored before the condition is removed"? by definition "reasonable" in one persons eyes might be unreasonable in anothers. I am thinking 6 months with a stalking record and letters from both mentors, does this seem "reasonable"?

The joke of all this is that I am allowed to go and zero my rifle on the land un supervised (BASC had copy of FAC and confirmed it), so I am deemed safe enough to discharge a rifle unsupervised at a bit of paper but not at a deer or charlie? despite holding a FAC for 3 years with rimfire's on it. This is where the law is becoming crazy, either they state that you must have minimum of DSC 1 and/or X amount of supervised stalks or not. My FEO suggested that until there is a formal process it is all open to interpretation and basically they can impose any condition deemed "reasonable".

Any suggestions or advice greatly received.

 

[Orion]

The other thing I wanted to ask was this "what is deemed a REASONABLE length of time to be mentored before the condition is removed"? by definition "reasonable" in one persons eyes might be unreasonable in anothers. I am thinking 6 months with a stalking record and letters from both mentors, does this seem "reasonable"?

It matters not a jot what anyone on here might think is reasonable, it's your FLD that control your FAC and you need to get the answer from them. I'd suggest that you ask them in writing and request a response in writing - it's not unknown for individual FEO/FLOs to move the goalposts for applicants - so that you know what's expected of you.

Having said that, I'll bet a pound to a penny that they won't want to commit themselves and will want to leave it as open as possible with vague references to 'experience gained' etc. It's up to you to push it with them and, if and when you feel you have the neccessary experience for an open ticket, to put them on the spot.

You're right, it's all up to the individual officer's interpretation so nothing new there!

 

[Eurobolt]

I have read the reply's with great interest ,I have never come across this kind of situation,can some one explain to me what is lnvolved with the restrictions put on the shooters in this part of the country and what a mentor has to do with a guy who has been granted a F.L. and is deemed by the police to be a fit and proper person to hold firearms and land suitable for the type of rifle applied for ???

 

[Orion]

Eurobolt, with respect the 'mentoring' condition/fiasco has been done to death on more than one occassion. If you do a forum search under that heading then I'm sure it will throw up multiple threads on the subject and will make interesting reading for anyone who doesn't have to suffer the crap.

 

[Eurobolt]

Cheers Orion, as a senior member I can understand your frustration on this topic,I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[NellyT]

It matters not a jot what anyone on here might think is reasonable, it's your FLD that control your FAC and you need to get the answer from them. I'd suggest that you ask them in writing and request a response in writing - it's not unknown for individual FEO/FLOs to move the goalposts for applicants - so that you know what's expected of you.

Having said that, I'll bet a pound to a penny that they won't want to commit themselves and will want to leave it as open as possible with vague references to 'experience gained' etc. It's up to you to push it with them and, if and when you feel you have the neccessary experience for an open ticket, to put them on the spot.


You're right, it's all up to the individual officer's interpretation so nothing new there!

Done that, as expected they would not commit to anything, I guess what I was trying to establish was whether 6 months + two letters seems reasonable, if it gets pushed back then I woul dtake a different route with the support of the BASC etc..

 

[Orion]

NellyT,

All you can do is keep banging away at them. If they want to impose this 'mentor' rubbish, (which I seriously oppose for numerous reasons as per other posts), then the least I would want them to do is to provide FAC holders with some indication of what it is meant to achieve and, most importantly, the threshold at which 'mentoring' can be discarded.

If they are unwilling to state either of those criteria, or evidence that mentoring provides an enhanced level of public safety compared to what went before - it doesn't - then I guess it exposes the mentoring for what it really is, nothing but a box ticking exercise that removes responsibility from the FLD and seriously inconveniences many otherwise law abiding FAC holders.

Rant over, but keep the pressure on and if BASC don't come through for you then join SACS - Ian will get involved on your behalf.

 

[NellyT]

Cheers Orion,

Appreciate your advice.

Neil

 

[FrenchieBoy]

I too am with Lancashire Firearms Office and was in the same position as the original poster. Lancashire police were going to lift "closed condition" and change my FAC to a full open ticket at the end of last year when I had finished my mentoring for foxes with a .222 - My mentor wrote to them stating that he had accompanied me on many occasions in both daylight and on the lamp and that I had ample experience, was a safe shooter, etc, etc, and they were quite happy with that and my conditions now allow me to shoot foxes unacompanied! However they changed the goal posts when put in for a 1 for 4 variation to get my .243 and have deer added. They said that as I was going to a larger calibre and wanted deer I would have to have a named mentor for the deer shooting but I would still be allowed to shoot fox with my .243 unacompanied. I offered them a named mentor who has his DSC1 but they refused him saying that he did not have the "necessary experience" to mentor me for deer shooting. I then offered them another named mentor which they were happy with. The problem arises in the fact that my named mentor is not always available when I want to go out for deer. After reading the original post on this thread I called the Lancashire firearms office and put this to them. They have now told me that if I send my ticket in with an accompanying letter they will happily change the "named mentor" condition to "Shooting deer while accompanied by an experienced deer stalker". I will say at this stage that I am reasonably happy with that as I have someone lined up that is willing to accompany me a few times and then write to them to get my mentoring condition taked off and try to get my ticket to a full open ticket so as not to be too restricting for me. (I already have ample experience with centrefires having shot something like 150 rounds with the 22-250 I had followed by some 250 rounds with the .222 and now around 250 rounds with the .243 over a period of about 2 years)
My question is, who decides who has "sufficient experience" to mentor you, how long should this mentoring condition be imposed for and how much experience should you be required to gain while under your mentoring condition before it can be lifted? There are no set guidelines or rules on this. Surely the point of mentoring (Regardless of if you agree with it or not) is to ensure that you know what you are doing with any firearm and that you are safe to use a firearm of the calibre secified on your FAC.
Also in answer to being allowed to transport and zero your rifle while unacompanied, I asked Lancashire Firearms Office about this ages ago and was told that it was perfectly acceptable for me to go out and zero my rifle whenever and as often as I wanted to without my mentor being present. With that in mind please can someone tell me, why can I be deemed as safe to shoot my rifle while zeroing it and to shoot foxes (On the lamp which surely raises the "safe shot assessment" situation without anyone watching over me) yet I am not deemed safe to go stalking (Naturally in daylight hours only) without a mentor - Surely there is practically no difference, it is the same rifle, I am still the same shooter and the risks or dangers are still the same and I have to assess every shot that I take regardless of if I am just out zeroing or shooting foxes just as the same as I would have to if I were out deer stalking - It really does not make sence to me!

p.s. Thanks to the original poster - I would not have known about this without him posting it, you have helped me out!

 

[TokaS]

Just had my metor condition removed from my ticket! A few zeroing sessions, having been out with mentor after foxes on the lamp for a few years now as an observer etc, and having discussed it with the FLO they agreed that a few sessions would be fine.

'its just another level of security' was what i was told, i got the feeling they meant that if the wheel came off and i ended up going beserk with my rifle they could say that not only did the force think i was ok to possess a rifle but that another fac holder felt the same, so it wasnt just the police...a pr backup so to speak?

glad you got yours sorted Pete, as frustrating as it is!

atb

 

[FrenchieBoy]

That's good news for you TokaS mate, I'm glad that things are working out for you. I will try to find time to send you a PM and have a "catch up" mate and maybe arrange a meet up but right now I am getting ready to go out bowling with the boss!