BASC response to England Deer Management Strategy consultation

[Klenchblaize]

And no doubt they will illegally slip it back into the woods when no one is looking!

Hopefully not in you manor!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Maybe I am too hard lined for many!?

Lets face a few facts - the herd in my stalking area is about 120-150 head, that is despite my best efforts over the last 15 years to manage and reduce the numbers!

at the moment their in little odds and sods, come the rut it all comes together and stays together!

As a rule over the last 10 years there herd is about 20% males 80% females, if i don't shoot any reds this winter and I usually shoot 30-50, 95% of that figure are female the herd will expand by another 80 odd with natural wastage other stalkers etc.

That then will put the herd at well over 200 head!

I’m sorry but how many have seen the crop and woodland damage by 100 reds let alone 200???

And this only little old me in little bit of hillbilly Norfolk!

So really now you might get my point of zero tolerance

So in reality something has to give, others who only do as they please are going to have to get their hands dirty, because of they don’t i can see this world of deer stalking changing drastically!

 

[User00038]

Maybe I am too hard lined for many!?

Lets face a few facts - the herd in my stalking area is about 120-150 head, that is despite my best efforts over the last 15 years to manage and reduce the numbers!

at the moment their in little odds and sods, come the rut it all comes together and stays together!

As a rule over the last 10 years there herd is about 20% males 80% females, if i don't shoot any reds this winter and I usually shoot 30-50, 95% of that figure are female the herd will expand by another 80 odd with natural wastage other stalkers etc.

That then will put the herd at well over 200 head!

I’m sorry but how many have seen the crop and woodland damage by 100 reds let alone 200???

And this only little old me in little bit of hillbilly Norfolk!

So really now you might get my point of zero tolerance

Exactly and there are too many places where too many males are shot during the winter. Do the population modelling and you see that it has to be females only.

I've read and understood your previous messages and I think that a request to open females up all year round is not realistically going to be granted.

However, changing the males to 1 April - 31 October and the females 1 November to 30 April, combined with clarity of justification for Section 7, would be a justifiable, reasonable method of achieving the aims of sustainable management.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Exactly and there are too many places where too many males are shot during the winter. Do the population modelling and you see that it has to be females only.

I've read and understood your previous messages and I think that a request to open females up all year round is not realistically going to be granted.

However, changing the males to 1 April - 31 October and the females 1 November to 30 April, combined with clarity of justification for Section 7, would be a justifiable, reasonable method of achieving the aims of sustainable management.

Ahhh section 7 pointless, too many gray areas to be prosecuted!

I would rather night shooting be legalised, in fact i want night shooting to be legalised!!

 

[User00038]

Ahhh section 7 pointless, too many gray areas to be prosecuted!

I would rather night shooting be legalised!

Hence the need for clarity on S7 - something we should all be putting into responses to the consultation.

I noted a comment a while back about the potential for people to take guests if night shooting was permitted without licence. I feel uncomfortable about the idea of people unfamiliar with the ground shooting at night, so my response is to simplify the process to an application=grant for named people only.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Hence the need for clarity on S7 - something we should all be putting into responses to the consultation.

I noted a comment a while back about the potential for people to take guests if night shooting was permitted without licence. I feel uncomfortable about the idea of people unfamiliar with the ground shooting at night, so my response is to simplify the process to an application=grant for named people only.

Guests = clients under code name = £££

Your sir are making perfect sense!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Hence the need for clarity on S7 - something we should all be putting into responses to the consultation.

I noted a comment a while back about the potential for people to take guests if night shooting was permitted without licence. I feel uncomfortable about the idea of people unfamiliar with the ground shooting at night, so my response is to simplify the process to an application=grant for named people only.

Another note on section 7- game dealers wont take out of season carcasses!

Ideal of your a fred in a shed mums the word! not if your wanting to shoot numbers of herd species.

 

[VSS]

Ahhh section 7 pointless, too many gray areas to be prosecuted!

I would rather night shooting be legalised, in fact i want night shooting to be legalised!!

The only thing that's going to solve your particular problem is if an obligation is placed upon all of the neighbouring landowners to control deer numbers. Quite possibly that's the sort of thing that will come about as a result of this consultation. Clearly your own efforts to get on top of the problem are failing, and minor tweaks (such as allowing night shooting) would just be tinkering around the edges for very little gain. Landscape scale control requires landscape scale cooperation, by legislation if necessary.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

The only thing that's going to solve your particular problem is if an obligation is placed upon all of the neighbouring landowners to control deer numbers. Quite possibly that's the sort of thing that will come about as a result of this consultation. Clearly your own efforts to get on top of the problem are failing, and minor tweaks (such as allowing night shooting) would just be tinkering around the edges for very little gain. Landscape scale control requires landscape scale cooperation, by legislation if necessary.

100% and would be very welcome but here lies the problem, a 30 acre thats not shot, joe bloggs next door shoots 2 a year, my mate on the other side of no mans land gets stuck in when their his side!

Then to top that off, tree huggers who own no mans land wont have the deer shot, let alone let us cross the boundary for a runner!

 

[VSS]

100% and would be very welcome but here lies the problem, a 30 acre thats not shot, joe bloggs next door shoots 2 a year, my mate on the other side of no mans land gets stuck in when their his side!

Then to top that off, tree huggers who own no mans land wont have the deer shot, let alone let us cross the boundary for a runner!

Those problems would evaporate if there was an obligation placed on landowners. It could easily be done as part of the BPS. Producing a deer management plan for the farm could be an annual requirement (similar to the current requirement for a nutrient management plan), as could the submission of an annual inventory (similar to the current requirement for an annual sheep & goat inventory). Non compliance would result in loss of agri-environment support scheme payments.
It would be so easy to do, and would place no additional cost on the tax payer.

 

[User00053]

Those problems would evaporate if there was an obligation placed on landowners. It could easily be done as part of the BPS. Producing a deer management plan for the farm could be an annual requirement (similar to the current requirement for a nutrient management plan), as could the submission of an annual inventory (similar to the current requirement for an annual sheep & goat inventory). Non compliance would result in loss of agro-environment support scheme payments.
It would be so easy to do, and would place no additional cost on the tax payer.

Carrot and stick works most of the time, the only fair and sensible way, with the understanding if a individual does not there may be consequences think this might be the new world order along with night shooting in the mix as a control method and more focus on the problems. Maybe some financial help for those that need or lots of sabre rattling and nothing really happens to change squat apart from us putting the world to rights, time will tell.

 

[JTO]

I think guides are probably capable of shooting more deer than all of their clients put together, but they would rather get paid by the punters than the game dealer.

 

[JTO]

Perhaps the UK military personnel could be fed venison instead of beef imported from places like Zimbabwe.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Those problems would evaporate if there was an obligation placed on landowners. It could easily be done as part of the BPS. Producing a deer management plan for the farm could be an annual requirement (similar to the current requirement for a nutrient management plan), as could the submission of an annual inventory (similar to the current requirement for an annual sheep & goat inventory). Non compliance would result in loss of agri-environment support scheme payments.
It would be so easy to do, and would place no additional cost on the tax payer.

But in reality i cant see this happening, in 5 years time the numbers will be more than ever and it will be the same guys up to their necks in it and wading through the same bullshite but a hell of a lot deeper!

Something major need doing and needs doing now!

 

[User00038]

Those problems would evaporate if there was an obligation placed on landowners. It could easily be done as part of the BPS. Producing a deer management plan for the farm could be an annual requirement (similar to the current requirement for a nutrient management plan), as could the submission of an annual inventory (similar to the current requirement for an annual sheep & goat inventory). Non compliance would result in loss of agri-environment support scheme payments.
It would be so easy to do, and would place no additional cost on the tax payer.

But in reality i cant see this happening, in 5 years time the numbers will be more than ever and it will be the same guys up to their necks in it and wading through the same bullshite but a hell of a lot deeper!

Something major need doing and needs doing now!

Me neither. I put this exact proposal to a couple of people in Defra and there was an instant shake of the head. Even to the idea of a compulsory deer management plan. They are still too focussed on deer being a woodland problem. Forestry Commission Digital Learning: Log in to the site is the closest you get: a compulsory webinar for land in Farm Woodland standard of ELM schemes. Everything else will be voluntary.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

NDS for BDS Chairman!

K

I am fully aware of the reasons for seasons and muntjac etc you not grasping my point!

Whats the difference between orphaning a muntjac compared to a fallow or red calf?

Nothing apart from its size!

The difference is that it is preventable with fallow and red but it isn’t with muntjac! If it is preventable then it should be prevented. No one is saying that a muntjac has less worth than a fallow

 

[VSS]

But in reality i cant see this happening, in 5 years time the numbers will be more than ever and it will be the same guys up to their necks in it and wading through the same bullshite but a hell of a lot deeper!

Me neither. I put this exact proposal to a couple of people in Defra and there was an instant shake of the head. Even to the idea of a compulsory deer management plan. They are still too focussed on deer being a woodland problem. Forestry Commission Digital Learning: Log in to the site is the closest you get: a compulsory webinar for land in Farm Woodland standard of ELM schemes. Everything else will be voluntary.

Hence why we now have an ongoing consultation. And if enough people respond with positive suggestions, then something positive will happen. But it'll be the stakeholders who shout loudest who get what they want. Therefore, if all stalkers respond then that would make a pretty big shout. In reality, I doubt that will happen. A certain percentage will respond, and the apathetic remainder will grumble about it afterwards.

Something major need doing and needs doing now!

I should say that placing an obligation on landowners and occupiers would fit the description of "something major".
The mechanism is in place to do it, and a precedent has been set.

But @Norfolk Deer Search , you do seem to be considering the whole thing purely from the perspective of what's happening on your own small piece of ground. That situation isn't replicated everywhere. Species differ, habitat differs, and deer densities differ. Some parts of the UK have no wild deer at all, and other parts are overrun. Responses to the consultation need to demonstrate an understanding of the bigger picture across country, and not simply relate to the difficulties you face on your small (and fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things) patch of ground.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Me neither. I put this exact proposal to a couple of people in Defra and there was an instant shake of the head. Even to the idea of a compulsory deer management plan. They are still too focussed on deer being a woodland problem. Forestry Commission Digital Learning: Log in to the site is the closest you get: a compulsory webinar for land in Farm Woodland standard of ELM schemes. Everything else will be voluntary.

So back to shoot on sight policy for me then

Not that o expected that to change!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Hence why we now have an ongoing consultation. And if enough people respond with positive suggestions, then something positive will happen. But it'll be the stakeholders who shout loudest who get what they want. Therefore, if all stalkers respond then that would make a pretty big shout. In reality, I doubt that will happen. A certain percentage will respond, and the apathetic remainder will grumble about it afterwards.

I should say that placing an obligation on landowners and occupiers would fit the description of "something major".
The mechanism is in place to do it, and a precedent has been set.

But @Norfolk Deer Search , you do seem to be considering the whole thing purely from the perspective of what's happening on your own small piece of ground. That situation isn't replicated everywhere. Species differ, habitat differs, and deer densities differ. Some parts of the UK have no wild deer at all, and other parts are overrun. Responses to the consultation need to demonstrate an understanding of the bigger picture across country, and not simply relate to the difficulties you face on your small (and fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things) patch of ground.

Here again lies the problem, those of us with problems need solutions, not a blanket country wide watered down public friendly consultation!

What has to be done is wholesale mass cull of the fallow and red deer!

Not nibbling around the edges, The government will not do anything that will involve ball ache, they will scoop around is the quickest and cost-effective way as possible in other words fuk all will be done about it!

 

[User00053]

I think guides are probably capable of shooting more deer than all of their clients put together, but they would rather get paid by the punters than the game dealer.

Having paying guests shooting hinds one huge pain in the botty in general which interferes with achieving cull numbers in good time and been able to be as selective as possible for what little revenue it generates.
That been said sounds like in some places in England see it, shoot it the way forwards with more freedom and capable people with the time to do it on a industrial scale, industrial been the key word.