New 300 WSM all around rifle project, selective hunting in Italy

[randello88]

Hi everyone. I followed this forum since many years and i already posted a similar thread in an american forum but here there is much more experience with the species i hunt!

so, until now i had a very prolific career hunting with a .308 here in Italy. That rifle, a bergara b14 with a 2-10x50i khales scope with a standard german IV type reticle, is intended to be used inside 250 yards and i built it in order to be as simple as possible, no need to worry about anything at that distances: from 200 yards below just point, shoot and the animal dies. I am currently using 170 gr geco teilmantel ammo (softpoint basically), which my gun shoots extremely well (0.3-0.4 MOA all day in range conditions). Now i want to try to reach a couple hundred meters further so i am looking at a tikka t3x lite in 300 WSM (but i am open to other calibers suggestions). I am still a bit undecided between a 300 wsm and a 7 rem mag but the possibility to have a shorter action and barrel, better barrel life and the fact that i like 30 cals make me lean towards the 300 wsm, despite the heavier recoil (luckily it seems that i just don't develope a flinch when i shoot, maybe until now ahah). And i would use a muzzlebrake anyway. So i wanna know what you think of this setup before starting buying stuff. Consider that i will hunt mainly roe deer (50 lbs), fellow deer (up to 240 lbs), wild boars (up to 380-400 lbs) and hunts outside my country are possible in the future (but this is not central in my choice now). Ranges would be from 10 to 500 meters (550 yards more or less), on average probably around 300 yards. I don't like the idea to shoot further because of the many variables that come into play and are more difficult to face at distances past 550 yards but i could change my mind in the future depending on the outcome of my future long shots. I do both stalking and still hunting, depending on the circumstances (50-50 i'd say). So:

-rifle: tikka t3x lite 300 wsm with 4-16 s&b scope (FFP, MIL reticle, uncapped turret for elevation, capped for windage and parallax adjustments) in a PSE composite e-lite stock with a bipod (still have to decide which one), sling and a muzzlebrake. Overall weight will be around 9.5-10 lbs.. a bit on the heavy side but i am young and in good phisical shape and a bit of weight will help with the actual shooting.
-ammo: no idea, i thought about 165 or 180 grains accubonds but i want your suggestions

My main questions are:

what about the caliber choice? I know i don't strictly need a magnum for this ranges and games but I think more power downrange is handy giving a little more more margin of error in regard to shot placement for long shots. There are calibers that have even better ballistic for sure but I think the 300 wsm has good ballistic anyway and I heard it's very accurate, pretty available here in my country, and packs a punch. Additionally it seems like this caliber is gonna stay pretty popular for many years to come and i love the longer barrel life in comparison to other faster calibers (in italy rebarreling is not easy for legal and practical reasons).

What do you think of this setup? What would you change?

What about the bullet? How would a 180 gr accubond perform on a small roe deer (50 lbs) at 50 meters and 400 meters? And what about a big 400 lbs wild boar at the same distances?

What about the scope?

What about the muzzlebrake? I have always shot without ear protections while hunting but whit that artillery piece i would do it. Any downside other than that and other than increasing weight and bulk of the rifle?

thanks and sorry for the poem ahah!

 

[angusb1]

Hi, this is what Nathan Foster has to say about the 180gr Accubond and other factory 300WSM ammo

.300 Winchester Short Magnum

"Olin’s 180 grain Nosler Accubond is best suited to game weighing over 90kg (200lb) and up to 320kg (700lb) though its performance on large bodied game is not quite as reliable or emphatic as the likes of the Woodleigh Magnum due to a tendency to shed a large amount of weight during penetration. Nevertheless, the Accubond works very well on large bodied deer at WSM velocities. Fastest killing is achieved at impact velocities above 2600fps (225 yards), clean but slightly delayed killing down to 2400fps (340 yards) with a further delay in killing as velocities fall below 2200fps. The 180 grain Accubond can be used in conjunction with Olin’s BST as a dual load for use on large bodied deer, the Accubond for close range work, the BST for longer range shots. Both projectiles have the same form and BC"

There's more information in the article about other factory ammo and hand loads but above is the bit about Winchester's 180gr Accubond

 

[randello88]

Hi, this is what Nathan Foster has to say about the 180gr Accubond and other factory 300WSM ammo

.300 Winchester Short Magnum

"Olin’s 180 grain Nosler Accubond is best suited to game weighing over 90kg (200lb) and up to 320kg (700lb) though its performance on large bodied game is not quite as reliable or emphatic as the likes of the Woodleigh Magnum due to a tendency to shed a large amount of weight during penetration. Nevertheless, the Accubond works very well on large bodied deer at WSM velocities. Fastest killing is achieved at impact velocities above 2600fps (225 yards), clean but slightly delayed killing down to 2400fps (340 yards) with a further delay in killing as velocities fall below 2200fps. The 180 grain Accubond can be used in conjunction with Olin’s BST as a dual load for use on large bodied deer, the Accubond for close range work, the BST for longer range shots. Both projectiles have the same form and BC"

There's more information in the article about other factory ammo and hand loads but above is the bit about Winchester's 180gr Accubond

Thanks my friend, now i am gonna read this article. It seems very detailed and informative. So the accubond doesn't seem to be my ideal bullet. If an ideal bullet for my purposes even exists

 

[angusb1]

I think you're asking a lot of a bullet for it to perform on such a wide range of game weight and toughness at such a wide range of distances. If you use a single bullet there will have to be compromises.

 

[jthyttin]

Tikka T3(x) is always the same action length, but yes the bolt throw is shorter on some like 308 (different bolt stop and magazine that has integral "fill piece" in the rear). I think 300 WSM has the 308 lenght magazine and bolt stop, even though official COAL is about one millimeter longer. But you probly want to switch to long magazine and corresponding bolt stop, so in effect the bolt throw will be same as for 7mm Rem Mag.

Like said, you will have to compromise if you plan on using single load for roe to boar, from point blank to 300-500 meters. And from your bullet choice it seems you also prefer flat trajectory. From terminal ballistics POV, your best bet is to go for as high BC as possible, because then difference in impact velocities between short and long range is smallest. I'm quite sure Nosler Accubond Long Range will do what you want at range. Problem is the 1-11" twist in Tikka, I don't know if you can go even 190gr in long sleek ABLR. With 168gr impact velocity at 50m will be 900+ m/s so it probly will do some damage to roe size quarry.

 

[Jagare]

What is the realistic range you will be shooting Roe, boar or fallow. Leave aside rural sniper dreams. I'm sure Nosler Accubond is a great bullet and will work well as will most bonded bullets that are available today.
I shoot Norma Oryx in my .308 and have shot plenty of roe, fallow and some big boar and quite a few smaller boar with that round. Nearly every shot has been sub 200 mtrs and most sub 100 mtrs. Even when I've been back hunting in the UK the ranges would have been sub 200mtrs on most places I've hunted. Here in the far frozen north and boar hunting through out Europe its Sub 100 mtr shooting.

 

[randello88]

I think you're asking a lot of a bullet for it to perform on such a wide range of game weight and toughness at such a wide range of distances. If you use a single bullet there will have to be compromises.

You are right. I could even use two different bullets but sometimes i get tags for both pigs and roes at the same time. In this case a compromise must be done: meat loss using a softer bullet or less than ideal terminal effect on the smaller animal using a thougher one? What would you choose based on your priorities?

 

[randello88]

Tikka T3(x) is always the same action length, but yes the bolt throw is shorter on some like 308 (different bolt stop and magazine that has integral "fill piece" in the rear). I think 300 WSM has the 308 lenght magazine and bolt stop, even though official COAL is about one millimeter longer. But you probly want to switch to long magazine and corresponding bolt stop, so in effect the bolt throw will be same as for 7mm Rem Mag.

Like said, you will have to compromise if you plan on using single load for roe to boar, from point blank to 300-500 meters. And from your bullet choice it seems you also prefer flat trajectory. From terminal ballistics POV, your best bet is to go for as high BC as possible, because then difference in impact velocities between short and long range is smallest. I'm quite sure Nosler Accubond Long Range will do what you want at range. Problem is the 1-11" twist in Tikka, I don't know if you can go even 190gr in long sleek ABLR. With 168gr impact velocity at 50m will be 900+ m/s so it probly will do some damage to roe size quarry.

Yeah, you are right. Good points. In my (limited) experience the 1:12 twist of my bergara prefer heavier loads and shoots 170 gr like a dream while it doesn't work well with all the 150s i tried. I wouldn't use 190 grains anyways, i think 180 is the sweet spot for me.

The 300 wsm can take also take advantage also a shorter barrel, i think the reduced overall lenght of the rifle would come from there mostly (24 inch vs 26 for a 7 mag). This comes handy when installing a muzzlebrake.

Do you think something like the sst would be too much explosive? Of course i would try to avoid aiming at the shoulder (like sometimes i do when I absolutely need to drop the animal on the spot) and i would aim at the blatt. That said, aiming at the shoulder will cause meat loss (my dog is always happy when it happens) and also with a 308 (and I think with almost any rifle caliber) is like that: even with less meat destruction shoulders are lost most of the time. Aiming at the blatt shouldn't give much different results with a magnum or with a regular caliber anyways. For example, i got a failed expansion on a perfect double lung shot on a roe i shot with my 308 and rws dk 165 gr at 190 meters. The bullet didn't impact any rib and the bullet didn't expand. So I switched to softpoints with much better effectiveness but, on paper, more meat loss. Despite more devastation, the meat i get from a roe is virtually the same at the end: shoulders are given to the dog if impacted, meat around ribs is very few anyways and since the bullet doesn't meet much resistance, it doesn't do all that of a mess.

 

[Selous]

Yeah, you are right. Good points. In my (limited) experience the 1:12 twist of my bergara prefer heavier loads and shoots 170 gr like a dream while it doesn't work well with all the 150s i tried. I wouldn't use 190 grains anyways, i think 180 is the sweet spot for me.

The 300 wsm can take also take advantage also a shorter barrel, i think the reduced overall lenght of the rifle would come from there mostly (24 inch vs 26 for a 7 mag). This comes handy when installing a muzzlebrake.

Do you think something like the sst would be too much explosive? Of course i would try to avoid aiming at the shoulder (like sometimes i do when I absolutely need to drop the animal on the spot) and i would aim at the blatt. That said, aiming at the shoulder will cause meat loss (my dog is always happy when it happens) and also with a 308 (and I think with almost any rifle caliber) is like that: even with less meat destruction shoulders are lost most of the time. Aiming at the blatt shouldn't give much different results with a magnum or with a regular caliber anyways. For example, i got a failed expansion on a perfect double lung shot on a roe i shot with my 308 and rws dk 165 gr at 190 meters. The bullet didn't impact any rib and the bullet didn't expand. So I switched to softpoints with much better effectiveness but, on paper, more meat loss. Despite more devastation, the meat i get from a roe is virtually the same at the end: shoulders are given to the dog if impacted, meat around ribs is very few anyways and since the bullet doesn't meet much resistance, it doesn't do all that of a mess.

Two points:
If you use an SST make it heavy for calibre to account for the loss in weight. I have shot a fair number of deer with the 7mm 162 SST out of a 7RM and it worked well beyond 150m but caused excessive damage closer in. For a 300WSM look at 190 grain plus…
Don’t feed your dog meat from around the wound track with lead core bullets… you may inadvertently give him lead poisoning!!

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

With respect to the load choice I think you're looking for an ideal that doesn't exist if I am honest, the spectrum of game and range is too broad to be easily covered by one load.

I've shot a fair number of Roe and Red deer using a 150 Barnes TTSX and more recently 175 LRX and it does a reasonably tidy job, mainly owing to the high weight retention causing a fairly set wound channel.
Due to the high weight retention I would have no doubt about using it on Boar too.
I'm not sure I would choose this bullet if I was looking to push out to 500m+ though, my Terminal velocity when pushing both fairly hard out of a 27" barrel with a high energy powder will reach 2200FPS Terminal Velocity, which is where I find the wound channel narrows with Barnes TTSX, at 460-470M for both. This is assuming Handloading and pushing it to the upper limits of either case capacity and/or pressure depending on the load. You may be able to push these bullets further and it still expand (somewhat) however you are then leaving no margin for error should you need a followup shot due to how close you are to the edge of the performance envelope.

If you wish to choose a bullet that will perform at lower velocities and as such favour performance further out (such as a Hornady SST or ELD - M) you will lose out on the close range shots and will see massive damage on the Roe deer, I experienced this when using the 165 SST in a .308 Win (so relatively low MV), it was horrendous the damage I got on Roe but fantastic on Red deer.

Was it myself making the decision I would dual load, carrying say a Barnes 150 TTSX or other high weight retention bullet in the rifle to deal with quick/close shots (say up to 300m) then have another load for taking shots further out (say 300-500M) perhaps loaded with a Hornady ELD-M or a more frangible alternative.
This will give you minimised damage close in when you need to be able to take a shot quickly while leaving you margin for error if you need to take a rapid follow up shot further (ie not leaving you right at the edge of the bullets effective velocity window) and also then give you the more frangible second load to deal with the longer shots as you'll have time to change the magazine/rechamber a new round during the time setting up for the longer shot.
This is made more practical by most modern ballistic calculators allowing you to put in a corrected zero for the second load so it builds zeroing the load into the dope it give you.

Ben

 

[randello88]

Two points:
If you use an SST make it heavy for calibre to account for the loss in weight. I have shot a fair number of deer with the 7mm 162 SST out of a 7RM and it worked well beyond 150m but caused excessive damage closer in. For a 300WSM look at 190 grain plus…
Don’t feed your dog meat from around the wound track with lead core bullets… you may inadvertently give him lead poisoning!!

Mh you are right but I usually give my dog the meat which hasn't been directly hit by bullet or fragments, i give him the part that are not good to eat because of haematomas but you are right, i should be more careful. Thanks for having thought about it!

I was worried about the sst doing too much damage closer in, i have even heard they can fragment so much that they end up lacking penetration but on this I am more sceptical. Vitals should be hit anyways. Do you have any experience on this?

 

[randello88]

With respect to the load choice I think you're looking for an ideal that doesn't exist if I am honest, the spectrum of game and range is too broad to be easily covered by one load.

I've shot a fair number of Roe and Red deer using a 150 Barnes TTSX and more recently 175 LRX and it does a reasonably tidy job, mainly owing to the high weight retention causing a fairly set wound channel.
Due to the high weight retention I would have no doubt about using it on Boar too.
I'm not sure I would choose this bullet if I was looking to push out to 500m+ though, my Terminal velocity when pushing both fairly hard out of a 27" barrel with a high energy powder will reach 2200FPS Terminal Velocity, which is where I find the wound channel narrows with Barnes TTSX, at 460-470M for both. This is assuming Handloading and pushing it to the upper limits of either case capacity and/or pressure depending on the load. You may be able to push these bullets further and it still expand (somewhat) however you are then leaving no margin for error should you need a followup shot due to how close you are to the edge of the performance envelope.

If you wish to choose a bullet that will perform at lower velocities and as such favour performance further out (such as a Hornady SST or ELD - M) you will lose out on the close range shots and will see massive damage on the Roe deer, I experienced this when using the 165 SST in a .308 Win (so relatively low MV), it was horrendous the damage I got on Roe but fantastic on Red deer.

Was it myself making the decision I would dual load, carrying say a Barnes 150 TTSX or other high weight retention bullet in the rifle to deal with quick/close shots (say up to 300m) then have another load for taking shots further out (say 300-500M) perhaps loaded with a Hornady ELD-M or a more frangible alternative.
This will give you minimised damage close in when you need to be able to take a shot quickly while leaving you margin for error if you need to take a rapid follow up shot further (ie not leaving you right at the edge of the bullets effective velocity window) and also then give you the more frangible second load to deal with the longer shots as you'll have time to change the magazine/rechamber a new round during the time setting up for the longer shot.
This is made more practical by most modern ballistic calculators allowing you to put in a corrected zero for the second load so it builds zeroing the load into the dope it give you.

Ben

Yes i think i will have to use two different bullets or just accept that i will shot only lungs/hearth inside 100 yards, so no shoulder shots unless i accept to lose meat. If i shoot sst bullets close in aiming at the blatt i shouldn't lose too much meat. When your 308 did a mess where did ypu hit the animal? And what do you mean by "mess"? For example, this is the last roe i shot. 170 gr geco Teilmantel, 198 meters, as you can see there was a pretty big exit hole (like a baseball ball) but i got more or less the same amount of good mmeatfrom this animal than with one shot with a more structured bullet). Consider that i shot her from above so the entrance is a few cm higher, in the area we call "blatt". So i would like to understand if you consider this a mess, i don't honestly as far as the animal died without suffering and I don't waste too much meat.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Yes i think i will have to use two different bullets or just accept that i will shot only lungs/hearth inside 100 yards, so no shoulder shots unless i accept to lose meat. If i shoot sst bullets close in aiming at the blatt i shouldn't lose too much meat. When your 308 did a mess where did ypu hit the animal? And what do you mean by "mess"?

The SSTs used to leave approximately a 30cm or dinner plate sized exit hole from memory. This was with both shoulder shots and shots tucked behind the shoulder. Quite simply they expanded massively (did kill them very quickly) but on a deer as small as a roe that caused massive exits and bruising.

I would hate to see the damage on a roe if it was 500-600 FPS quicker from my WSM. I’m sure it would be okay on larger game though.

Ben

 

[randello88]

The SSTs used to leave approximately a 30cm or dinner plate sized exit hole from memory. This was with both shoulder shots and shots tucked behind the shoulder. Quite simply they expanded massively (did kill them very quickly) but on a deer as small as a roe that caused massive exits and bruising.

I would hate to see the damage on a roe if it was 500-600 FPS quicker from my WSM. I’m sure it would be okay on larger game though.

Ben

Thanks Ben! Unfortunately i was editing my previous post while ypu were replying so please check the pic i attached and tell me what you think so I understand what are we talking about better! Btw 30 cm exit would almost split a roe in half since that's the height of a roe chest broadside! I have never witnessed such big holes, not even with softpoint. Not even close to 30 cm!

 

[Selous]

Mh you are right but I usually give my dog the meat which hasn't been directly hit by bullet or fragments, i give him the part that are not good to eat because of haematomas but you are right, i should be more careful. Thanks for having thought about it!

I was worried about the sst doing too much damage closer in, i have even heard they can fragment so much that they end up lacking penetration but on this I am more sceptical. Vitals should be hit anyways. Do you have any experience on this?

Worth reading this….

I have poisoned my dogs

a. This isn't a joke b. It's recoverable, but with horrible short term consequences c. I damn well should have known better d. I offer myself to the Altar of Humble Pie in the hope you don't do the same Who will be first to guess what I poisoned them with?

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

I have never had a surface blow up and failure to penetrate but have selected SSTs on the heavy side for the cartridge

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Thanks Ben! Unfortunately i was editing my previous post while ypu were replying so please check the pic i attached and tell me what you think so I understand what are we talking about better! Btw 30 cm exit would almost split a roe in half since that's the height of a roe chest broadside! I have never witnessed such big holes, not even with softpoint. Not even close to 30 cm!

I wouldn’t have an issue with the picture shown above.

The SSTs barely left any of the exit side of the chest so yes it was a huge exit - I didn’t shoot many small deer with them as a result.
They were excellent on the larger red deer I was shooting though.

See this thread where I have put pictures of damage from the .300 WSM on roe and Red deer, I would consider all of these as acceptable damage:

The WSM (Winchester Short Magnum) family- anyone in uk use them?

 

[jthyttin]

i think 180 is the sweet spot for me

You cannot go on and choose a bullet based on weight, if you want long range terminal performance. That requires reasonable terminal velocity, i.e. good combination of muzzle velocity and BC (velocity retention).

168gr ABLR has better BC than 180gr regular AB. I've shot 200gr AB in 308 Tikka (same 1-11" twist) but only on range (got them at very good price). They stabilize OK, round holes and good accuracy at 150m, but I wouldn't use them on game where you want rather over- than understabilization. 190gr ABLR is .005" shorter and WSM has more velocity so you might get away with it.

I'd have suggested the dual load solution ("short range" in chamber and "long range" in pocket) but it requires either luck / very thorough load development (get away with single zero for both loads) or very very solid routine (remembering to change zero and return to original zero after the shot). If you go that route just duplicate your current 308 load for short range (assuming you're happy with it) and develop the long range load using suitable bullet and as much velocity you can get.

Some data points from my experience (these are personal opinions on what to use, I don't have any cull targets etc.)
- 165gr 30cal AB at 308Win velocity (MV 840m/s) will tear roe too badly sub 100m
- 900m/s terminal velocity is too much for fallow sized quarry, even if we drop down to 6.5mm
- 1000m/s or near terminal velocity is too much for fallow size, even dropping way down in caliber/weight

 

[randello88]

Worth reading this….

I have poisoned my dogs

a. This isn't a joke b. It's recoverable, but with horrible short term consequences c. I damn well should have known better d. I offer myself to the Altar of Humble Pie in the hope you don't do the same Who will be first to guess what I poisoned them with?

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

I have never had a surface blow up and failure to penetrate but have selected SSTs on the heavy side for the cartridge

I see, thank you, i'll keep this in mind regarding sst. And now i'll definitely read that post about lead poisoning

 

[randello88]

I wouldn’t have an issue with the picture shown above.

The SSTs barely left any of the exit side of the chest so yes it was a huge exit - I didn’t shoot many small deer with them as a result.
They were excellent on the larger red deer I was shooting though.

See this thread where I have put pictures of damage from the .300 WSM on roe and Red deer, I would consider all of these as acceptable damage:

The WSM (Winchester Short Magnum) family- anyone in uk use them?

Did the sst reliably make a pass-through on red deer?

Oh that's interesting thanks, i'll look into it. Btw at first glance i don't see any extreme, unacceptable meat loss in any of those pics

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Did the sst reliably make a pass-through on red deer?

Oh that's interesting thanks, i'll look into it. Btw at first glance i don't see any extreme, unacceptable meat loss in any of those pics

Yes the 165 SST made reliable pass throughs in my experience (MV was 2600ish).