Why the UK legal minimum is .240 not .243.

[Sinistral]

4 British calibres, and the .243 Win we all know and love.
From the left . . .

(1) .244 H&H Magnum BRNE (1955)
(2) .242 RNE aka '.242 Vickers' (1923)
(3) .240 Magnum FNE Flanged (1924)
(4) .240 Magnum BRNE aka '.240 Apex' (1923)
(5) .243 Win (1952)

The .244 H&H Magnum (1) uses the .375 H&H case.
The .242 RNE (2) didn't last long because of (4).
The .240 Mag Flanged (3) is the rimmed version of (4).
The .240 Mag BRNE (4) trails the .243 (5) but is still seen in action.

N.B. All the British cartridges are .245".
Easy to understand isn't it.

 

[Scotty99]

The story I read, and it may be apocryphal, is that when the home office were looking at what should be the minimum calibre for deer, they visited an estate in Scotland, asked the head ghillie what calibre he used, it was a .240, so they said alright we‘ll set that as our minimum. May be bunkum but that’s what I read some where.

 

[Dalua]

All the British cartridges are .245".

I'm not sure that's true, is it? Apart from .244H&H I think they're named for their actual bore - so the .242RNE needs a slightly wider bullet.

The .243WIn has a bore of .236" - which doesn't quite meet the .240" minimum, if you follow the traditional British way of looking at theses things...

 

[bogtrotter]

In Scotland we don't have a minimum caliber we have a minimum bullet weight of 100gr which is legal for all UK species.
Effectively making it .243 for large species.
.22 centrefire with the designated 50gr bullet can be used on Roe.
Specific muzzle energy and velocity must also be met in both cases.

 

[Smellydog]

Experts, the moment you become an expert you can change laws by talking out yer arse!

Didn't 244 h&h come from the 300 h&h?

 

[Sinistral]

The diameter of the bullets is .245" in all of them, the naming I'd imagine is proprietary.
The .244 H&H and .300 H&H are both based on the .375 (.375 shoulder pushed back).

 

[ashray]

.240 wetherby used by the high ups in the deer society 1952 onwards.

 

[Dalua]

The diameter of the bullets is .245" in all of them, the naming I'd imagine is proprietary.

I thought the .242 actually has a .242" bore - needing wider bullets that the .240"bores (which include the proprietary/American-style-named 244H&H)?

 

[VSS]

The story I read, and it may be apocryphal, is that when the home office were looking at what should be the minimum calibre for deer, they visited an estate in Scotland, asked the head ghillie what calibre he used, it was a .240, so they said alright we‘ll set that as our minimum. May be bunkum but that’s what I read some where.

The story I heard was that 243 was initially proposed as the legal minimum, and then someone recalled that the Queen's favourite stalking rifle was 240, so the proposal was hastily amended to avoid creating an embarrassing situation.
Probably bunkum, but a nice story nonetheless.

 

[scrumbag]

I'm not sure that's true, is it? Apart from .244H&H I think they're named for their actual bore - so the .242RNE needs a slightly wider bullet.

The .243WIn has a bore of .236" - which doesn't quite meet the .240" minimum, if you follow the traditional British way of looking at theses things...

The .236" is in the Northern Ireland legislation funnily enough whereas for England, Wales and Scotland the 0.240" number is used...

 

[Smellydog]

The story I heard was that 243 was initially proposed as the legal minimum, and then someone recalled that the Queen's favourite stalking rifle was 240, so the proposal was hastily amended to avoid creating an embarrassing situation.
Probably bunkum, but a nice story nonetheless.

I bet her favourite roe rifle was a Hornet or a 222!

 

[Ronin]

.236” to the land dimension

.243” to the groove base dimension

There were, as there are now, different schools of thought on how bore diameters should be measured

No mystery really

 

[Dalua]

The .236" is in the Northern Ireland legislation funnily enough whereas for England, Wales and Scotland the 0.240" number is used...

I wonder whether the NI rules/legislation came later, after this discrpepancy had been noticed. The odd thing is that having 0.236" in NI seems to emphaise the point that .243Win doesn't meet E&W requirements.

 

[Dalua]

.236” to the land dimension

.243” to the groove base dimension

There were, as there are now, different schools of thought on how bore diameters should be measured

No mystery really

Is it not the land diameter that is referred to as the 'bore'?

 

[Smellydog]

Is it not the land diameter that is referred to as the 'bore'?

Yes it is. The bore comes first then the rifling second.
The law should of read, " with a groove diameter no less than.....".

 

[enfieldspares]

The story of asking a stalker in Scotland is more likely that someone in London asked his Eton or Harrow educated laird living in SW1.

The raising from 20" to 24" for shotgun barrels was done by the Labour Roy Jenkins in 1967. Which introduced shotgun licensing.

Why 24"?

Because of Robert Churchill's "XXV" guns with 25" barrels. Previously for many years to 20" the minimum length to not be a firearm was 9" until the 1937 Firearms Act.

 

[Ronin]

Is it not the land diameter that is referred to as the 'bore'?

Or is it the groove diameter

 

[Scotty99]

The story I heard was that 243 was initially proposed as the legal minimum, and then someone recalled that the Queen's favourite stalking rifle was 240, so the proposal was hastily amended to avoid creating an embarrassing situation.
Probably bunkum, but a nice story nonetheless.

That sounds entirely plausible.

 

[Stalker62]

The bore comes first then the rifling second.

 

[enfieldspares]

Anyway. about that .242 Vickers....here's one Parker Hale had listed in their 1938 Cataloguse: