Junior doctors strike

[willie_gunn]

Trouble is that that argument stands up if the job remains the same.

The chronic shortage of workers across the whole sector leads to rota gaps that the nurses and doctors fill without extra pay.
Burn out is a real factor.

The pension is not as good as it was. I have just retired and have been awarded 37% of what they said I would get when I started in 1988!

All these factors are not realised.

Is it not still a defined benefit pension scheme?

If so, it may not be as good as it was, but it is far superior to what is available in the private sector.

The NHS retaining an unaffordable pension scheme is only possible because it is funded by the taxpayer, whilst that same taxpayer is denied accessing anything remotely similar.

Lest we forget, the limit has also just been removed on the Lifetime Pension Allowance, which stood at £1,073,100.

This was driven in part because NHS doctors reached the point where they maxed out on their allowable pension contributions, making it uneconomic for them to carry on working. This was cited as a major reason why doctors, and GP’s in particular, were retiring or working part time.

To be clear, I don’t begrudge them any of their benefits - they do a marvellous job - but focusing exclusively on junior doctor’s pay ignores how their earnings increase significantly over the length of their careers. It also ignores the rest of their renumeration package, which is still generous by comparison to what is available elsewhere.

So by all means increase junior doctor’s pay, but admit that it will cost a lot of money to do so. Some of that funding should perhaps come from paring back other benefits such as their pension scheme? Otherwise it seems like they want to both have their cake and eat it.

Another alternative might be to consider that, to match the pay offered in those countries where the junior doctors are moving to, we should also look to match the way their health services are organised and funded.

 

[big ears]

Perhaps I've misunderstood the BMA's definition of 'junior doctor', then. I thought the strike was limited to those in training.

I'm not sure how an FY2's £40,000-odd pa turns into £14 per hour?

It’s not £40k, the actual salary is £34,012. Divide it by 52 weeks and then by 48 hrs in a week. Comes out at £13.63.

 

[Bowland blades]

Just to make it clear, the people who are striking are trainees drawing a salary while on a publicly-funded training-scheme.

If there are no jobs outside the NHS offering that degree of medical training with salary, I expect there's a good reason for that: probably that it is extremely inconvenient and time-consuming to run a service as well as making that offer.

LET ME PUT YOU STRAIGHT HERE , As a farther of a Student just qualified as a doctor . Grants didn't even cover housing and for the first year and last year of University she received Nil , Squat, Diddly! No we are not Millionaires and many months it put is in overdraft . during her medical " experiance" she was grafting often enough alone and unsupervised during the Covid epidemic , certifying death experience was plentiful one week and she was well over her student full quota required for the whole of her training . suffered Covid herself twice !
Indeed at coming up 24 year old she has yet to be paid a bean , any other employer would of course be charged with modern slavery - no ifs or buts about it ! Travel to and from placements where not covering the 36 pence per mile .
In a very short time she will be the person left in charge of a ward , yet wont be paid as much as a nurse and she will have to be paying back her student loans .
The system work like this why exactly ? How do laws that even apply to military and police in training not apply to student doctors?
Even when she actually gets paid she wont draw near as much as i did in my mid twenties 30 plus years ago , chances her cohort will stay in the UK and the NHS as they rise through the ranks ? Not High i would hazard a guess .
Nurses are actually paid from the get go first day in the job though , Just as the rest of the nation are ( even if classed as a trainee )

 

[willie_gunn]

It’s not £40k, the actual salary is £34,012. Divide it by 52 weeks and then by 48 hrs in a week. Comes out at £13.63.

Always worth understanding the figures behind the headlines:

The average junior doctor gets paid more than £14 an hour – Full Fact

A BMA advertisement says that a junior doctor makes just £14.09 per hour. This might be true in some cases, but on average junior doctors earn much more.

fullfact.org

 

[Bowland blades]

Always worth understanding the figures behind the headlines:

The average junior doctor gets paid more than £14 an hour – Full Fact

A BMA advertisement says that a junior doctor makes just £14.09 per hour. This might be true in some cases, but on average junior doctors earn much more.

fullfact.org

And remember take off the loan payments from their borrowings for the years on the wards totally unpaid for their work .

 

[big ears]

Is it not still a defined benefit pension scheme?

If so, it may not be as good as it was, but it is far superior to what is available in the private sector.

The NHS retaining an unaffordable pension scheme is only possible because it is funded by the taxpayer, whilst that same taxpayer is denied accessing anything remotely similar.

Lest we forget, the limit has also just been removed on the Lifetime Pension Allowance, which stood at £1,073,100.

This was driven in part because NHS doctors reached the point where they maxed out on their allowable pension contributions, making it uneconomic for them to carry on working. This was cited as a major reason why doctors, and GP’s in particular, were retiring or working part time.

To be clear, I don’t begrudge them any of their benefits - they do a marvellous job - but focusing exclusively on junior doctor’s pay ignores how their earnings increase significantly over the length of their careers. It also ignores the rest of their renumeration package, which is still generous by comparison to what is available elsewhere.

So by all means increase junior doctor’s pay, but admit that it will cost a lot of money to do so. Some of that funding should perhaps come from paring back other benefits such as their pension scheme? Otherwise it seems like they want to both have their cake and eat it.

Another alternative might be to consider that, to match the pay offered in those countries where the junior doctors are moving to, we should also look to match the way their health services are organised and funded.

Not all if this is correct. The doctors pension scheme does not drain tax payers money in fact the treasury takes money out of the scheme.
In part this is due to the increase in subscription forced on doctors of paying 15% of their income into the pension scheme. The highest of any public sector workers.
As you say this lead to maxing out of pension pots after about 30 years of service. What then happens is the treasury then tax any further growth in your pension pot meaning in some cases eye watering tax bills. The knock effect if this was people left the profession before they hit the maximum pot or like myself had too leave the pension scheme loosing all the benefits of death in service benefit or enhanced pension rights for illness related retirement.
It was either leave or remortgage the house to pay the tax bill on the pension scheme or get the scheme to pay the bill reducing the benefit paid on retirement significantly.
Either way round it was the treasury that enforced this rather than a choice of the doctors.

I haven’t a problem with paying tax but when you are faced with a tax bill out if the blue it has proved for many a tipping point.

 

[big ears]

Always worth understanding the figures behind the headlines:

The average junior doctor gets paid more than £14 an hour – Full Fact

A BMA advertisement says that a junior doctor makes just £14.09 per hour. This might be true in some cases, but on average junior doctors earn much more.

fullfact.org

You’re not understanding the term junior doctor. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Junior doctors include all doctors in career grades below consultant. This is from newly qualified to those about to take consultant posts with 10 years experience under their belts.

If you average that out it will be higher than £14/hr

But an F2 working in emergency department this weekend at 02.00hrs will be getting about £14/hr.

 

[Bowland blades]

Not all if this is correct. The doctors pension scheme does not drain tax payers money in fact the treasury takes money out of the scheme.
In part this is due to the increase in subscription forced on doctors of paying 15% of their income into the pension scheme. The highest of any public sector workers.
As you say this lead to maxing out of pension pots after about 30 years of service. What then happens is the treasury then tax any further growth in your pension pot meaning in some cases eye watering tax bills. The knock effect if this was people left the profession before they hit the maximum pot or like myself had too leave the pension scheme loosing all the benefits of death in service benefit or enhanced pension rights for illness related retirement.
It was either leave or remortgage the house to pay the tax bill on the pension scheme or get the scheme to pay the bill reducing the benefit paid on retirement significantly.
Either way round it was the treasury that enforced this rather than a choice of the doctors.

I haven’t a problem with paying tax but when you are faced with a tax bill out if the blue it has proved for many a tipping point.

Imagine the likelihood of our MPs deciding they should do the same ?

 

[big ears]

Imagine the likelihood of our MPs deciding they should do the same ?

Be nice

 

[Bowland blades]

You’re not understanding the term junior doctor. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Junior doctors include all doctors in career grades below consultant. This is from newly qualified to those about to take consultant posts with 10 years experience under their belts.

If you average that out it will be higher than £14/hr

But an F2 working in emergency department this weekend at 02.00hrs will be getting about £14/hr.

Hardly surprising that most wont stay in the UK NHS much time once free to leave

 

[Bowland blades]

Be nice

About time we stopped electing the idiots and started putting straight honest speaking folks in Parliament and put this nation back on track . Ten years work outside of politics should be a requirement , yet it would leave us with very few folks able to stand ! How sad is that as a nation eh?

 

[Dalua]

It’s not £40k, the actual salary is £34,012. Divide it by 52 weeks and then by 48 hrs in a week. Comes out at £13.63.

You're right - I picked the next grade up.

 

[Rasputin]

LET ME PUT YOU STRAIGHT HERE , As a farther of a Student just qualified as a doctor . Grants didn't even cover housing and for the first year and last year of University she received Nil , Squat, Diddly! No we are not Millionaires and many months it put is in overdraft . during her medical " experiance" she was grafting often enough alone and unsupervised during the Covid epidemic , certifying death experience was plentiful one week and she was well over her student full quota required for the whole of her training . suffered Covid herself twice !
Indeed at coming up 24 year old she has yet to be paid a bean , any other employer would of course be charged with modern slavery - no ifs or buts about it ! Travel to and from placements where not covering the 36 pence per mile .
In a very short time she will be the person left in charge of a ward , yet wont be paid as much as a nurse and she will have to be paying back her student loans .
The system work like this why exactly ? How do laws that even apply to military and police in training not apply to student doctors?
Even when she actually gets paid she wont draw near as much as i did in my mid twenties 30 plus years ago , chances her cohort will stay in the UK and the NHS as they rise through the ranks ? Not High i would hazard a guess .
Nurses are actually paid from the get go first day in the job though , Just as the rest of the nation are ( even if classed as a trainee )

With respect though she did chose that occupation which has highly visible salaries traded off by job security and flexibility. Moaning after the fact seems a bit much.

Everyone who was a student myself included had to pay additional costs not included by a student loan. Heck I even borrowed money for my masters from a high street lender.

Iirc when working as a junior stock broker (2009) I was on min wage commuting from Blackpool to Manchester every day to be at my desk for 0630 paid for 40 working 60. Was just par for the course when trying to learn and I suspect many others have the same story across just about every other industry going.

It’s still a fantastic profession and the junior doctors i train with at the gym who are one or two years post training seem to enjoy their jobs now but suffering early on in life is part of life that’s necessary and character building I’m afraid.

 

[willie_gunn]

You’re not understanding the term junior doctor. This was discussed earlier in the thread.
Junior doctors include all doctors in career grades below consultant. This is from newly qualified to those about to take consultant posts with 10 years experience under their belts.

If you average that out it will be higher than £14/hr

But an F2 working in emergency department this weekend at 02.00hrs will be getting about £14/hr.

If Full Fact has its facts wrong you’d be best taking it up with them.

 

[Dunwaters]

I worked in the private sector of the IT industry for all my 42 years in work. If I wasn’t being paid enough, I went and got my self a better paying job. That is how you beat inflation.

Fair point, but the essence of a public health system is that your employees become public servants by default.
Do junior doctors want to become middle grade civil servants or self employed?
The training regime is the same.
If you had the money and a touch of the Lurgy would you rock up at the local A+E and wait 8 hours or a private clinic and get immediate attention ?
It’s a 2 tier world, get used to it.

 

[Bowland blades]

With respect though she did chose that occupation which has highly visible salaries traded off by job security and flexibility. Moaning after the fact seems a bit much.

Everyone who was a student myself included had to pay additional costs not included by a student loan. Heck I even borrowed money for my masters from a high street lender.

Iirc when working as a junior stock broker (2009) I was on min wage commuting from Blackpool to Manchester every day to be at my desk for 0630 paid for 40 working 60. Was just par for the course when trying to learn and I suspect many others have the same story across just about every other industry going.

It’s still a fantastic profession and the junior doctors i train with at the gym who are one or two years post training seem to enjoy their jobs now but suffering early on in life is part of life that’s necessary and character building I’m afraid.

Your missing the points . Most her cohort will leave the UK and dont be surprised when we are seriously short of doctors to whom English is a second language and we have even longer waiting lists . We very nearly left the UK before she was even an egg .
Nobody had to take student loans then unless they went for a masters and those sitting in parliament didn't have to either - how far we have slipped thanks to them

 

[Rasputin]

Your missing the points . Most her cohort will leave the UK and dont be surprised when we are seriously short of doctors to whom English is a second language and we have even longer waiting lists . We very nearly left the UK before she was even an egg .
Nobody had to take student loans then unless they went for a masters and those sitting in parliament didn't have to either - how far we have slipped thanks to them

I am not missing the point at all o get it. Honestly good for them leaving the UK I don’t blame them one bit. I shall be doing the same again first chance I get. Hate to say it but maybe it’s what we need to finally kick the current form of the nhs into touch and get something useful and sustainable.

 

[sikamalc]

LET ME PUT YOU STRAIGHT HERE , As a farther of a Student just qualified as a doctor . Grants didn't even cover housing and for the first year and last year of University she received Nil , Squat, Diddly! No we are not Millionaires and many months it put is in overdraft . during her medical " experiance" she was grafting often enough alone and unsupervised during the Covid epidemic , certifying death experience was plentiful one week and she was well over her student full quota required for the whole of her training . suffered Covid herself twice !
Indeed at coming up 24 year old she has yet to be paid a bean , any other employer would of course be charged with modern slavery - no ifs or buts about it ! Travel to and from placements where not covering the 36 pence per mile .
In a very short time she will be the person left in charge of a ward , yet wont be paid as much as a nurse and she will have to be paying back her student loans .
The system work like this why exactly ? How do laws that even apply to military and police in training not apply to student doctors?
Even when she actually gets paid she wont draw near as much as i did in my mid twenties 30 plus years ago , chances her cohort will stay in the UK and the NHS as they rise through the ranks ? Not High i would hazard a guess .
Nurses are actually paid from the get go first day in the job though , Just as the rest of the nation are ( even if classed as a trainee )

We should all be thankful that there are still people such as this young lady who are prepared to carry on in this profession. The NHS is without doubt one of the most badly managed industry, if one can call it that, you will find that this and past governments have run. Starting at the very top of the NHS we have those that are over paid with huge sums of money as wages. One only had to look at the recent pandemic and all those dodgy contracts given out to companies by MP's. Funny how some were associates or friends of friends, or close relatives. Many companies used didn't even have any experience in PPE.

The money that is wasted by successive utter ars.holes of so called honourable politicians is staggering. One only has to listen to some of the lame, pathetic excuses given by many of them when they are interviewed. Not an ounce of honesty and truth comes out of their mouths. Most have no experience of running a business, or they have a family business they fell into.
The NHS needs a grass root sort out and a wage scale for its staff that reflects the dedication and skill that these people deserve. Not some poncy politician walking around a hospital for the cameras making out they really care.

There that's my rant over on this subject

By the way Happy Easter everyone. Suns out in sunny south Kent.

 

[Dalua]

...and a wage scale for its staff, that reflects the dedication and skill, that these people deserve.

If only anyone could agree on what that would look like.

 

[Dazb1967]

LET ME PUT YOU STRAIGHT HERE , As a farther of a Student just qualified as a doctor . Grants didn't even cover housing and for the first year and last year of University she received Nil , Squat, Diddly! No we are not Millionaires and many months it put is in overdraft . during her medical " experiance" she was grafting often enough alone and unsupervised during the Covid epidemic , certifying death experience was plentiful one week and she was well over her student full quota required for the whole of her training . suffered Covid herself twice !
Indeed at coming up 24 year old she has yet to be paid a bean , any other employer would of course be charged with modern slavery - no ifs or buts about it ! Travel to and from placements where not covering the 36 pence per mile .
In a very short time she will be the person left in charge of a ward , yet wont be paid as much as a nurse and she will have to be paying back her student loans .
The system work like this why exactly ? How do laws that even apply to military and police in training not apply to student doctors?
Even when she actually gets paid she wont draw near as much as i did in my mid twenties 30 plus years ago , chances her cohort will stay in the UK and the NHS as they rise through the ranks ? Not High i would hazard a guess .
Nurses are actually paid from the get go first day in the job though , Just as the rest of the nation are ( even if classed as a trainee )

There must be a reason why your daughter has chosen this path and please don't say its for the love of looking after or caring for people or medicine, as I said earlier in the post I was in a job early in life which was a job I always wanted to do but soon realised it wasn't for me and got out of it even though it would have lead to better things.
Doctors Nurses Care workers Supermarket workers delivery drivers and everyone else who works to keep the country going all do a fantastic job but they all do it for one reason and one reason only and that is for money.
Everyone has a choice what they want to do in life, The system may need looking at from what you're saying and if things are really as bad as your saying I would have chose a different career path