Rifle barrels onto a H&H Paradox?

Thoburns

Well-Known Member
I have a Holland and Holland Royal paradox 1905 with the muzzle end 2" rifled this gun could shoot 700 grain slugs. The gun was a sleeper having been sent to India waiting for its owner and unfortunately he was killed in an hunting accident in the UK before he set off. The gun was returned from India in the 60s having not been used and the chokes opened up unfortunately removing the rifling. Wondered what the pressures may have been to proof this gun for a 700grain slug and would the action take the pressure of say a 30-06 or 308 if I had a set of rifle barrels made for it.
Thoughts? anyone know of a rifle smith experienced with double rifles?
 

Attachments

  • 20230711_173347.webp
    20230711_173347.webp
    325.4 KB · Views: 71
  • 20230711_173711.webp
    20230711_173711.webp
    224.6 KB · Views: 72
  • 20230711_173733.webp
    20230711_173733.webp
    244.2 KB · Views: 68
  • 20230711_174002.webp
    20230711_174002.webp
    149.5 KB · Views: 70
I'm no expert on Paradox (or indeed any other) guns, but I believe they are in essence shotguns - meaning that there should be info regarding chamber-length and proof/service-pressure marked on the barrels.

700grains would be a hefty shot-charge for a 12bore - so I'd imagine it wouldn't be going too fast...
 
You may find that small calibre barrels are out of proportion to the action size. If the outer dimensions are kept correct then the wall thickness will be huge and the balance adversely affected. I’m sure the gunsmith will be able to advise how big of a problem this may be.
 
Paul Roberts might be worth speaking to as he dealt in guns from India of that period for many years.
 
I think the Paradoxes were running at pretty the same pressures as a normal shotgun. Have a look at the proof marks. Shotgun slugs run at normal shotgun pressures and are frequently shot through screw in rifled chokes.

Most older shotguns were proofed at 3 tonnes per square inch, which is about 10,000 PSI. Heavier magnum is 4 tonnes.

The key is the backthrust of the cartridge on the action face. If you take the 12 bore shotgun cartridge its rim diameter is .850 inch.

Thus area of face is 22/7 x .425x.425 = .56 sq in.

Pressure on face is thus about 5600 pounds.

Take the 30-06 with 60,000 psi and .473 rim diameter and do same calcs you get about 10,500 pounds of force on the action face.

If you look at most double rifles the action table is longer than a shotgun, the action thicker through the detonation and the bore line is much closer to the water table.

Net result is much less leverage on the action.

Saying that there have been plenty of double rifles built on shotgun actions, likewise plenty of double rifles are equipped with a pair of shot barrels (usually 28 or 20 bore), but they are usually a real compromise.

My advise would be to enjoy and use the paradox for what it is - its a pity the rifled chokes have been reemed out, but almost certainly done so it could be held on a shot gun certificate.

Others have made mention of some good makers above. But consider that you get little change from £100,000 on a new British double rifle, price for a set of barrels will a good proportion of that.
 
Peak pressure does not bare on the breach face as Heym sr20 suggests.
You may find the rifle cases bare less in the breech due to higher presser causing the case to stick to the chamber better than a shot gun hull!

If this was not true how come a light spring can hold a bolt shut on semi automatic rifles of blow back design?
 
Peak pressure does not bare on the breach face as Heym sr20 suggests.
You may find the rifle cases bare less in the breech due to higher presser causing the case to stick to the chamber better than a shot gun hull!

If this was not true how come a light spring can hold a bolt shut on semi automatic rifles of blow back design?
Agree with what you say that the cartridge case does grip the chamber walls and thus you don’t get the full force of the cartridge coming back, but break action rifles still need to be made strong enough in the action to withstand the additional forces imparted by a rifle cartridge. They will usually have a third bite, a dolls head or cross / kirsten type bolt to provide additional strength.

As for comments on blow back designs of semi / full auto - they are pretty much all rimfire or pistol calibre. Things like the sten or sterling smg fire from an open bolt so that you have forward momentum of a heavy bolt to hold the case in the chamber till pressures lower. Others such as the MP5 use a roller mechanism to delay the opening.

Most pistols have a barrel / slide that recoil together that unlocks the barrel, the slide then goes rearwards to eject and picks up next round on way forward.

Semi or full auto using full power high velocity cartridges with pressures of 50,000 psi using some form of locking bolt. This has various forms. Early ones where toggle type mechanisms - vikers hubs etc, later tipping bolt as in the FN FAL / SLR or the rotating bolts as M1 Garand or the AR type and many other modern weapons. These are unlocked either by a recoiling mechanism (early machine guns or via a gas type system - both of which effectively unlock the bolt as you would on a bolt action or straight pull rifle.

A full power rifle cartridge needs a good locking mechanism to contain the pressures. The brass would let go if you didn’t have such mechanisms in place.

Back to double rifles, vast majority are built on rimmed cartridges- 450/400, 470 NE etc are these all operate at much lower pressures - 40,000 psi or less sorts of levels. Still substantially higher than a double shotgun but less than full pressure bolt action cartridges.

Those that are built in the smaller bores - 303, 7x57R etc are built strong.
 
I have a Holland and Holland Royal paradox 1905 with the muzzle end 2" rifled this gun could shoot 700 grain slugs. The gun was a sleeper having been sent to India waiting for its owner and unfortunately he was killed in an hunting accident in the UK before he set off. The gun was returned from India in the 60s having not been used and the chokes opened up unfortunately removing the rifling. Wondered what the pressures may have been to proof this gun for a 700grain slug and would the action take the pressure of say a 30-06 or 308 if I had a set of rifle barrels made for it.
Thoughts? anyone know of a rifle smith experienced with double rifles?


This is the guy to talk to

 
Just been watching a video of a guy shooting rifled 12 bore slugs in a shotgun with rifled chokes. He shot a 5 shot 3/4" group at 50 yards. With 400gr slugs at 1460fps you would have a muzzle energy of 1892ft/lbs. Deer legal in England and Wales. I reckon that would make a fantastic woodland stalking gun. You could even have one barrel with a rifled choke and the other with a smooth choke then you have a drilling you could shoot just about anything that walks or flies in this country with.

A lot cheaper than getting a pair of rifle barrels made.

In Scotland however you'd be breaking the law if you took deer with it
 
Just been watching a video of a guy shooting rifled 12 bore slugs in a shotgun with rifled chokes. He shot a 5 shot 3/4" group at 50 yards. With 400gr slugs at 1460fps you would have a muzzle energy of 1892ft/lbs. Deer legal in England and Wales. I reckon that would make a fantastic woodland stalking gun. You could even have one barrel with a rifled choke and the other with a smooth choke then you have a drilling you could shoot just about anything that walks or flies in this country with.

A lot cheaper than getting a pair of rifle barrels made.

In Scotland however you'd be breaking the law if you took deer with it
Yep, Britain again is so far behind what slugs from shotguns can do.
 
Recoil spring has very minor role in keeping the blowback breech closed. Inertia of the bolt (and attached parts) does most of the work.

Went and weighed the bolt for some straight and delayed blowback guns:

- 22LR (Ruger MK2) 143 grams (including spring since it's moving with bolt)
- 9mm (Glock 17) 362 grams
- 9mm (AR-15) 442 (bolt) plus 153 (buffer) grams, total 595 grams

Both Ruger and Glock, breech is easy to hold closed with your thumb while shooting. Efffectively your thumb is taking the role of recoil spring. I'd imagine it would be as easy with AR, but the construction wouldn't allow to try it.

Almost 600 gram on AR is still a bit too light for regular factory ammo. You can see from the brass, that breech starts opening pre-maturely. With handloads this is quite evident, cases are clean on the outside until you reach certain level and they start to get sooty.

Many people run blowback 9mm ARs with way too light bolt/buffer, for different recoil impulse and faster shooting. In competition delayed actions (rotating bolt, MP5 roller delay, and even gas operated) have and will take most ground and leave straight blowbacks in minority.
 
Just been watching a video of a guy shooting rifled 12 bore slugs in a shotgun with rifled chokes. He shot a 5 shot 3/4" group at 50 yards. With 400gr slugs at 1460fps you would have a muzzle energy of 1892ft/lbs. Deer legal in England and Wales. I reckon that would make a fantastic woodland stalking gun. You could even have one barrel with a rifled choke and the other with a smooth choke then you have a drilling you could shoot just about anything that walks or flies in this country with.

A lot cheaper than getting a pair of rifle barrels made.

In Scotland however you'd be breaking the law if you took deer with it

£25k for Hollands to make a pair of barrels.....
 
Back
Top