The Benefits of Using Non-Toxic Bullets for Deer Management in the UK

[Smellydog]

the shards of metal you talk about are not an issue for a start hawks only get slithers of venison , my eyesight is good enough to see a foreign body in the meat.

If a lump on metal of any type was eaten, by some chance of me feeding my hawk blindfolded then the hawk would regurgitate the lump of metal the same as bits off bone on feather / fur.

This issue is smaller dust particles off lead that would be digested as it is TOXIC .

The copper dust if any is NOT toxic.

You are getting hung up on shards of mental getting into the gut- shards of metal won’t get into a gut of a hawk as they empty crop every day with non digestible items- lead dust is digestible and TOXIC

I am starting to think that you are just playing to fool so you have someone to talk to

Before you switched to copper, did you lose any birds to lead poisoning, confirmed?

 

[takbok]

What is the point of it?

It helps the kids of today to get through university without doing very much.

 

[StephenToast]

It helps

It helps the kids of today to get through university without doing very much.

It gets ****ed and vomits on itself as well?

 

[Jon P]

Before you switched to copper, did you lose any birds to lead poisoning, confirmed?

No, as a responsible animal owner I did not feed any venison then as I know lead to be toxic to BOP.

However I know of a boy who lost a Harris Hawk that when he found his hawk was eating on a dead pheasant- hawk was dead within 4 days - on checking pellets in its mews there were lead shot in the regurgitated pellets. Before you ask he did not have a post-mortem done by two different independent vets to check for lead poisoning.

You can bury your head and be a non believer that lead is toxic, but that is your choice. Some people can’t learn if they don’t want too.

Some think the world is flat, but I don’t waste my time on them either

 

[LuckyEddie]

Some think the world is flat, but I don’t waste my time on them either

 

[Mungo]

Uni students will be loving AI for ‘writing’ papers, esp if searches never return the same identical answer. @Mungo , assume you have had the discussions at your work

Oh very much so.

I actually do the Academic Misconduct investigations for my entire College, and I have become extremely familiar with all the various generative AI programmes.

We are in the midst of the most profound change in teaching and learning since the introduction of standardised testing, and very few are paying attention. An undergraduate can now go through an entire degree and graduate with a respectable 2:1 entirely using AI. The solution is clearly a return to much greater reliance on traditional in person, invigilated exams, but the educational establishment is extremely resistant to do this, primarily because exams are regarded as old fashioned and obsolete…

 

[Sako6.5x55]

I thought lead was dug out of the ground and then turned into ammunition. So by someone distributing it in smaller quantities over bigger areas better for the environment?
You would think that the manufacturers of lead products would be those most at risk and I don’t see any of them lining up to ban it.
How many of you are prepared to give up your car battery, this would have considerably more impact on the environment than the small community of shooters that use lead ammunition.
We’ve had 4 star petrol is bad for the environment, use unleaded. Unleaded petrol is bad for the environment, use diesel. Diesel is bad for the environment, use electric. At what point will it be decided that copper is bad for the environment and is more toxic than lead?

 

[Bowland blades]

Sako copper blade out perform Sako lead in both accuracy and terminal impact in both of my deer rifles, I wouldn’t go back to lead for deer

Yes i have a mate who has to use factory via his employment and they are way the best factory i have seen him use . There certainly is a big differences how well different brands work as regards expanding and terminal performance

 

[Mungo]

What is the point of it?

Of generative AI?

An interesting question.

From a corporate perspective, it’s a way to generate text extremely cheaply. Advertising copy, instruction manuals, basic communications etc. Already there are layoffs starting as AI is being used to do things that previously required humans. Google it and have a read. The consensus seems to be that AI will do to middle class jobs what automation did to industry.

 

[Mungo]

It helps the kids of today to get through university without doing very much.

If only that we’re its only or even primary use…

 

[StephenToast]

Of generative AI?

An interesting question.

From a corporate perspective, it’s a way to generate text extremely cheaply. Advertising copy, instruction manuals, basic communications etc. Already there are layoffs starting as AI is being used to do things that previously required humans. Google it and have a read. The consensus seems to be that AI will do to middle class jobs what automation did to industry.

I will google it.

Never heard of it before. Hope it doesn't learn how to run a farm.

 

[Selous]

So you think the gizzard will grind copper?

No I’m saying that the copper fragments are unlikely to lacerate the gut. Small copper fragments like you see with Yew Tree bullets will pass through and larger fragments like you see with Virtus bullets will probably been picked around. Barnes tend to stay in one piece. Lead soft points create a blizzard of tiny pieces that the birds can’t pick around. The copper fragments are all much larger than lead fragments. It is possible that the gizzard will grind copper but there have been no reported incidences of copper from ammunition causing death of birds. If you can find one reported please post it as it’s important to know about.

 

[Smellydog]

You can bury your head and be a non believer that lead is toxic, but that is your choice. Some people can’t learn if they don’t want too.

Not at all friend.
I know lead can be be toxic. Like uranium and plutonium but we don't mind spreading that around do we but I guess that as the majority benefit from the odd atomic accident the best way to balance the scales is to stop the use of lead ammunition .
Shame about the Harris hawk but like you say, inconclusive.
ATB.

 

[Smellydog]

Lead soft points create a blizzard of tiny pieces

Not all lead bullets are the same!
I can if you wish dog out account after account of recovered lead bullets retaining most of their weight that flies in the face of the common assumption you make.
ATB

 

[Jon P]

Not at all friend.
I know lead can be be toxic. Like uranium and plutonium but we don't mind spreading that around do we but I guess that as the majority benefit from the odd atomic accident the best way to balance the scales is to stop the use of lead ammunition .
Shame about the Harris hawk but like you say, inconclusive.
ATB.

Where did I say I wanted all lead shot to be banned? My first quote in this thread was saying why I personally use non lead Ammunition.
Then you started banging on about me getting a metal detector instead. Anyway I have wasted enough time in this topic.

I personally won’t be buying any uranium ammunition either. ( personal choice ).

Enjoy your scatter gun with lead projectiles

 

[Selous]

Not all lead bullets are the same!
I can if you wish dog out account after account of recovered lead bullets retaining most of their weight that flies in the face of the common assumption you make.
ATB

The key word you mention is most…… the important thing is to look at weight lost rather than weight retained and most will lose a lot. Bear in mind that most folks don’t use premium bonded soft points like the Swift A frame in the UK that do retain weight well but fail to expand on light bodied deer. Many of the conventional choices that people recommend such as the Nosler BT hunting, the SST, the Sierra game king and the Nosler Partition will lose 30-50% of mass. The lost mass is most often composed of hundreds of tiny particles rather than a few big particles as you see with copper bullets. The clearest example of this is found in the study linked below. If you compare the CT scan of the lead bullet with that of the copper you will see the difference.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102015&type=printable

 

[Smellydog]

The key word you mention is most…… the important thing is to look at weight lost rather than weight retained and most will lose a lot. Bear in mind that most folks don’t use premium bonded soft points like the Swift A frame in the UK that do retain weight well but fail to expand on light bodied deer. Many of the conventional choices that people recommend such as the Nosler BT hunting, the SST, the Sierra game king and the Nosler Partition will lose 30-50% of mass. The lost mass is most often composed of hundreds of tiny particles rather than a few big particles as you see with copper bullets. The clearest example of this is found in the study linked below. If you compare the CT scan of the lead bullet with that of the copper you will see the difference.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102015&type=printable

Yes sir but who in the hell would serve up the resulting bloody mess to man or beast?

 

[Smellydog]

Where did I say I wanted all lead shot to be banned?

I never said or implied you did

 

[HonestJohn]

What is the point of it

Then you are using the wrong lead bullet.
This one didn't leave much lead!
View attachment 325862
And if you study recovered lead bullets you often find they retain most of themselves to similar values you give monolithic!

Illegal (and unethical) on deer really, doesn’t expand in a predictable manner

 

[Selous]

Yes sir but who in the hell would serve up the resulting bloody mess to man or beast?

Lots of people would serve meat from the vicinity of the wound track for food to people and dogs. If you take a chest shot roe deer and cut away a 4 inch RADIUS (so an 8 inch diameter) around the bullet track you will minimise the risk of lead being included but there will be many deer where the saddle should be discarded but probably isn’t.