Glen feshie

Bit of Scots pine information, no huge expanses and seemingly fragile.
That’s an excellent article. Very balanced and a good antidote to the Great Caledonian Forest fantasy.

The key point to take from it is very much that pine advanced and contracted as the climate changed. But it certainly never went extinct, or even came close.

But there are other important points. First, that the existing pine woods are commonly representative of woods that existed at least 400 years ago - when they were already scattered and disconnected. Second, that herbivory exerts strong control over where the woods can establish and persist. Put those two together, and you can easily make an argument that many areas in between the fragments could support pine.

Third, as we keep avoiding, is the simple fact that even if pine didn’t cover the highlands, some form of woodland did.
 
That’s an excellent article. Very balanced and a good antidote to the Great Caledonian Forest fantasy.

The key point to take from it is very much that pine advanced and contracted as the climate changed. But it certainly never went extinct, or even came close.

But there are other important points. First, that the existing pine woods are commonly representative of woods that existed at least 400 years ago - when they were already scattered and disconnected. Second, that herbivory exerts strong control over where the woods can establish and persist. Put those two together, and you can easily make an argument that many areas in between the fragments could support pine.

Third, as we keep avoiding, is the simple fact that even if pine didn’t cover the highlands, some form of woodland did.
Interesting stuff indeed so be interesting to link red deer numbers historically or at least modern history just out of interest and the meteoric rise in numbers pre sika days and spread of their range encouraged and assisted by us.
 
Someone needs to make a map showing which estates came about as a direct result of clearances.
 
Multiple things removed Scotlands trees. Initially to clear land for farming and to use timber for building and fuel. Then for making charcoal for iron smelting in places like Glen Etive before large scale coal mining replaced charcoal as the fuel of choice.

A lot of timber was used in the Royal Navy and Merchant Navy as the British Expanded. God alone knows how many Oak trees went into a ship like HMS Victory, but ships were used from the 1600’s up till late 1800’s. Then huge fishing fleets all used huge quantities of scots pine, larch and oak. Most of the little harbours all the way around the Scottish coast had huge quantities of fishing boats all fishing for cod and herring, all along with potatoes were exported to low countries in wooden barrel transported in wooden ships (and all the Dutch half round roof tiles on old east coast houses came back as ballast on the same boats).

As for the clearances. This was a mix of political and economic. Post Jacobite rebellion the likes of the Duke of Sutherland and Duke of Argyl thought that large scale sheep farming would be far more profitable that having lots of little tenant farmers growing crops and cattle. They also had a dire for labour in the new colonies in the Americas as well as in Industrial Mills in Central belt and further south. So pretty much the tenants were given their marching orders and the offer of new land in the New World or the prospects of work in the mills. Some went willingly, some with a little persuasion. Some ended up as indentured labour for the rest of their lives, sone prospered, many died.

The sheep project didn’t last very long. Sheep are really a dryland animal. Most sheep in the British Isles were on the Eastern downlands and fens - hence the very large churches built by all the wool barrons in the middle ages.

Scotland was cattle country - think Rob Roy etc with Scottish cattle being exported down to England and the continent by Drovers who walked them down.

By the mid 1800’s Sheep in Scotland were producing the wool to make the landowners wealthy. Wool production went to Australia and cheap cotton from India and Americas in many ways replaced wool.

Fortunately Queen Victoria had married the German Prince Albert who rather enjoyed to sport of stalking deer and chamois in the Alps. British Gentlemen hunted, but on horseback with hounds after foxes and deer.

But stalking became the height of fashion. Mang of Scottish Lairds - now pretty much broke with little in the way of rents from tenants (whom they had kicked off the land) nor income from sheep, were only too happy to lease or sell of parcels of land to wealthy industrialists and aristocrsts all of whom wanted to emulate Prince Albert and Queen Victoria.

The opening of the railways made Scotland very accessible. Indeed the likes of Earl of Caithness and Duke of Sutherland funded the railway from Inverness up the Helmsdale, across the flow country to Thurso. At the same time selling of little estates (each of several thousand acres) as sporting estates with river frontage for Salmon and hill ground for Deer.

And hence the Scottish Sporting estate was born.

Very jaundiced view, did you get that brief and largely incorrect, rose-tinted story under the guise of 'history' conveyed to you at The Caledonian Club?
 
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is something introduced by the Romans or Norman's or later now naturalized to the UK? Onions, Cabbages, Apples, Potatoes, Sika, Fallow, Sycamore, Beech, Cherry, Elm, Turnips, Rhododendron, and on and on and on
Beech is native and went much further north than was previously thought. Cherry (gean) native. Wych elm native. Evidence Scots pine remained in numerous locations in England particularly the Welsh marches and Northumberland so UK native too. Arguably fallow were brought here before the Normans by the Anglo Saxons and were also here pre glacial, so let’s claim fallow native too!
 
Very jaundiced view, did you get that brief and largely incorrect, rose-tinted story under the guise of 'history' conveyed to you at The Caledonian Club?
Not sure it’s rose tinted at all. He very clearly makes the point that people were forced off the land, and many died.

I suspect you didn’t actually read it…
 
Beech is native and went much further north than was previously thought. Cherry (gean) native. Wych elm native. Evidence Scots pine remained in numerous locations in England particularly the Welsh marches and Northumberland so UK native too. Arguably fallow were brought here before the Normans by the Anglo Saxons and were also here pre glacial, so let’s claim fallow native too!
Which makes my point, when do non native species become native......

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/tr...jMFn0Sj0BQ6Impdt3fBTQNZotZDYQqCcaAs-LEALw_wcB
 
Not sure it’s rose tinted at all. He very clearly makes the point that people were forced off the land, and many died.

I suspect you didn’t actually read it…

'So pretty much the tenants were given their marching orders and the offer of new land in the New World or the prospects of work in the mills. Some went willingly, some with a little persuasion. Some ended up as indentured labour for the rest of their lives, sone prospered, many died.'

Erm, that's akin to describing Anne Frank's experiences as 'unpleasant'.

The Highland Clearances were a genocide. A history of which estates have conveniently paved over, even on those owned by QUANGO's.

I suspect you have not studied Scottish history very much.
 
Isn’t native essentially defined based on pre continental drift
There isn’t really a good, consistent definition of ‘native’.

About the least controversial is ‘arrived without human assistance’ - but obviously that can be hard to determine.

There’s a gradual shift within ecology toward just ignoring the whole native/non native dichotomy altogether, and instead focusing on the effect an introduction might have. So some have negative effects (American crayfish, grey squirrels), many don’t seem to have much in the way of a measurable effect (loads of plants, rose ringed parakeets), and some may on balance have a positive effect (Norway spruce, sycamore). And the vast majority simply don’t establish.
 
'So pretty much the tenants were given their marching orders and the offer of new land in the New World or the prospects of work in the mills. Some went willingly, some with a little persuasion. Some ended up as indentured labour for the rest of their lives, sone prospered, many died.'

Erm, that's akin to describing Anne Frank's experiences as 'unpleasant'.

The Highland Clearances were a genocide. A history of which estates have conveniently paved over, even on those owned by QUANGO's.

I suspect you have not studied Scottish history very much.
I don’t read it as downplaying the horror of it at all. It’s an entirely accurate description - the only phrase that you can attack is ‘some went… with a little persuasion’. The tone of voice doesn’t convey in text, but I think that is meant as ironic understatement. Anyone who knows the history knows the ‘persuasion’ was savage violence and threat of death.

Otherwise as a bald statement of facts, it’s correct. They were forced off the land, into the mills or to the new world. Some did do ok, most did not and many died.

I do not read that as presenting the viewpoint of a clearance apologist at all.

As for reading history - I’m well aware of it, and believe me, my views on land ownership in the Highlands would make me no friends on here at all. You’re very trigger happy with your condemnation of people you decide don’t share your viewpoint. Maybe calm down a little.
 
A lot depends on who writes the history and how they frame it for a modern audience. Beware politicians mining grievance culture. I mean, the Normans were rather beastly to the indigenous people in England, but we don't still harp on about it. Maybe we should - imagine the reparations. (As for the Romans, what did they ever do for us...?)
 
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Join BLM, take the knee, and call for reparations! 😉
Yes, hundreds of years ago and they are still honking on about it. Maybe we should rewild the estates but only using the original genetics of course. Never mind reparations let's try repatriations from from America and Canada. Gie them a lift hame. :D
 
'So pretty much the tenants were given their marching orders and the offer of new land in the New World or the prospects of work in the mills. Some went willingly, some with a little persuasion. Some ended up as indentured labour for the rest of their lives, sone prospered, many died.'

Erm, that's akin to describing Anne Frank's experiences as 'unpleasant'.

The Highland Clearances were a genocide. A history of which estates have conveniently paved over, even on those owned by QUANGO's.

I suspect you have not studied Scottish history very much.
Ah the myth of Scottish victimhood, let’s all sit down and have a big cry about it.

Hundreds of thousands of English serfs and peasants were cleared first through the Enclosures, not just a Scottish thing.

Look back at the pre clearance times with faux nostalgia and rose-tinted glass, but for most it was a brutal short existence, a subsistence living in abject poverty. Shallow and infertile soils, bad weather, periodic famines. Ordered to fight/kill/die against whoever your feudal overlord fell out with. Realistically in the long run most of those cleared were better off than those who remained.
 
Ah the myth of Scottish victimhood, let’s all sit down and have a big cry about it.

Hundreds of thousands of English serfs and peasants were cleared first through the Enclosures, not just a Scottish thing.

Look back at the pre clearance times with faux nostalgia and rose-tinted glass, but for most it was a brutal short existence, a subsistence living in abject poverty. Shallow and infertile soils, bad weather, periodic famines. Ordered to fight/kill/die against whoever your feudal overlord fell out with. Realistically in the long run most of those cleared were better off than those who remained.
Australia would be my choice given my interests and talents if forty odd years ago i had more foresight though living and working in the highlands was a pleasure.🤷🏽‍♂️
 
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