Following thermal spotters, has the need for top quality binos decreased, or increased in recent years ?

[billy_boyle_2010]

Hi guys

I'm curious really. I use mid priced kit for the most part. But I find myself bringing my binoculars less frequently now.

As far as I can see- binoculars have traditionally had two purposes.

1) Spotting and scanning for quarry

2) Identifying and examining quarry, selecting suitable animals, identifying specific deer etc

IMO a thermal has pretty much made 1) irrelevant now. It's a skill I try to maintain- but it's hard.


2) is still very much needed. And binoculars are the best at it IMO. £200 of used binoculars out perform £400 of used scope IME.

But- if one has spotted deer with a thermal- and they are in a safe position to aim a rifle, one can examine them safely through a scope.

Thus- unless light is on the very limit (where the additional light gathering of binoculars is needed to study, but a shot is possible with a scope)- a thermal and a scope is sufficient for most tasks.

Very interested to hear others opinions There's an argument that smaller lighter binoculars are now more useful- where the effort and hassle of carrying them is less. But in doing so, their performance over a scope optic is likely less (quality dependent) and so as their size decreases, perhaps their optical advantage decreases too.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I use a Hensoldt 8x56 monocular as it is much lighter around my neck, so my Zeiss 8x56s now stay at home.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

I use a Hensoldt 8x56 monocular as it is much lighter around my neck, so my Zeiss 8x56s now stay at home.

Hey that's a point- a monocular! Far smaller and lighter. I wonder which would gather more light- a 8x28 pair of binos or a 8x56 monocular ?

I suppose, if one is using a thermal- the light gathering of 1 eye has been bleached for a few mins anyway.

 

[Heym SR20]

Fundamentally the rifle should only be pointed at something you want to destroy. A scope is for aiming the rifle.

It is not something for selecting a target.

Binoculars are a must for clearly identifying a deer and selecting it as a cull animal.

Sooner or later there is going to be a terrible accident where somebody uses the thermal image to select an animal in poor light and then shoots. Only to find that it was a person.

In the UK, we have very few hunting accidents and long may it remain.

In other parts of the world there are many hunting accidents, most of which are the hunter thinking the object is a deer and shooting. I have previously posted a summary report of such incidents in New Zealand where there have many such incidents each year.

Overwhelming response from SD members was that I was talking shite and it would never happen.

The above attitude is exactly what will lead to such accidents.

 

[Heym SR20]

Hey that's a point- a monocular! Far smaller and lighter. I wonder which would gather more light- a 8x28 pair of binos or a 8x56 monocular ?

I suppose, if one is using a thermal- the light gathering of 1 eye has been bleached for a few mins anyway.

This is a very good point - you will generally usr the thermal with your shooting eye. Thus degrading its performance through the scope.

And most thermals are monocular. You have no depth perception like you have with binoculars.

There is no substitute for a good pair of Binoculars-7 or 8 x36 or 42’s are perfect.

If budget is tight then look at the older bent tube type optics. They are much cheaper to make so are typically half the price and lighter in weight than an equivalent straight tubed pair.

Eg Habicht 7x42 - SWAROVSKI OPTIK

Will be optically as good as

EL 8.5x42 W B - SWAROVSKI OPTIK

www.swarovskioptik.com

 

[cjm1066]

Scanning for deer the thermal provides much better contrast for initially find deer, far better than even the best binoculars.

Once you close binoculars every time.

If budget is tight, a thermal and reasonable binos is better imo than no thermal and top end binos.

 

[palo]

Just recently bought a thermal.
Im using it along with my binos.
Its a pain carrying both but I wouldn't be happy just using my thermal and my rifle scope
Im using my thermal with my non shooting eye.

 

[jimmer.13]

Fundamentally the rifle should only be pointed at something you want to destroy. A scope is for aiming the rifle.

It is not something for selecting a target.

Binoculars are a must for clearly identifying a deer and selecting it as a cull animal.

Sooner or later there is going to be a terrible accident where somebody uses the thermal image to select an animal in poor light and then shoots. Only to find that it was a person.

In the UK, we have very few hunting accidents and long may it remain.

In other parts of the world there are many hunting accidents, most of which are the hunter thinking the object is a deer and shooting. I have previously posted a summary report of such incidents in New Zealand where there have many such incidents each year.

Overwhelming response from SD members was that I was talking shite and it would never happen.

The above attitude is exactly what will lead to such accidents.

So what about shooting at night?

I use thermal to pick up the heat source of what I believe to be a fox.
I then use night vision mounted to my rifle to confirm the identity of my quarry and the target is not obscured.
Am I doing something wrong in your opinion.
I would argue that if you are not competent to know the state your rifle is in and that you can’t aim it in a safe direction without fear of accidentally discharging it…….. then probably you shouldn’t even own one.
To the military are taught to use their weapon mounted optics to scan and observe. It’s not that difficult really

 

[jall55]

So what about shooting at night?

I use thermal to pick up the heat source of what I believe to be a fox.
I then use night vision mounted to my rifle to confirm the identity of my quarry and the target is not obscured.
Am I doing something wrong in your opinion.
I would argue that if you are not competent to know the state your rifle is in and that you can’t aim it in a safe direction without fear of accidentally discharging it…….. then probably you shouldn’t even own one.
To the military are taught to use their weapon mounted optics to scan and observe. It’s not that difficult really

You are without a shadow of doubt doing something wrong - i would hope in everyone's opinion

A rifle should only be pointed at something you intend to shoot

 

[Blackwood Outdoors]

So what about shooting at night?

I use thermal to pick up the heat source of what I believe to be a fox.
I then use night vision mounted to my rifle to confirm the identity of my quarry and the target is not obscured.
Am I doing something wrong in your opinion.
I would argue that if you are not competent to know the state your rifle is in and that you can’t aim it in a safe direction without fear of accidentally discharging it…….. then probably you shouldn’t even own one.
To the military are taught to use their weapon mounted optics to scan and observe. It’s not that difficult really

Perfectly normal , it’s how 99% do it at night , even with lamps, night vision and thermal .

Unless everyones got military grade high resolution handheld spotting devices or there just speaking guff ..

Yes you detect at night with thermal , sometimes recognise/identify , then you hopefully can ID 100% with the rifle mounted scope, but sometimes you still cannot ID depending on ambient conditions, distance, etc

Anyone who says they don’t lift a rifle at night to identify at certain points , yeh ok then

 

[jthyttin]

And most thermals are monocular. You have no depth perception like you have with binoculars.

While there have been thermal binos (like FLIR BN-10), the stuff sold to consumers as binos is nothing but a monocular fitted with dual displays.

(happy to be proven wrong)

 

[Bowland blades]

There is lots a thermal wont see ever ! Thermals are very good for fast spotting , which is a good but also a bad thing of many facets .
I have used them and will use them in future but they really do take away a lot of the enjoyment and selectivity , once you place the bead of a rifle on anything your in a shooting state of mind . We should not be pointing loaded rifles or even supposed to be empty rifles at stuff we are not sure we want to kill yet .
Dashing along paths and through holding areas at speed or even from a vehicle with a thermal in hand truck window down is frankly too much like work . If you guiding dont expect to make regular long term sporting customers quite so easy if you have slipped into that " thermal jogging " thing!
Also thinking on how many times have you been stalking privately a good Stag / Buck and then swapped and switched onto one you noticed was carrying a noticeable injury etc ?

 

[Klenchblaize]

How many deer in this Country? Should be falling over them and enjoying every hair and crenellated coronet in Zeiss 8X56 HD.

Thermal is for pussies!

K

 

[jall55]

Perfectly normal , it’s how 99% do it at night , even with lamps, night vision and thermal .

Unless everyones got military grade high resolution handheld spotting devices or there just speaking guff ..

Yes you detect at night with thermal , sometimes recognise/identify , then you hopefully can ID 100% with the rifle mounted scope, but sometimes you still cannot ID depending on ambient conditions, distance, etc

Anyone who says they don’t lift a rifle at night to identify at certain points , yeh ok then

I dont
Never have
Never will

 

[Heym SR20]

So what about shooting at night?

I use thermal to pick up the heat source of what I believe to be a fox.
I then use night vision mounted to my rifle to confirm the identity of my quarry and the target is not obscured.
Am I doing something wrong in your opinion.
I would argue that if you are not competent to know the state your rifle is in and that you can’t aim it in a safe direction without fear of accidentally discharging it…….. then probably you shouldn’t even own one.
To the military are taught to use their weapon mounted optics to scan and observe. It’s not that difficult really

Yes in my opinion.

As for standard operating procedure’s for military - well soldiers when on patrol are doing a very very different job to a deer stalker of fox shooter.

In military, if you are in an active war zone every person is viewed as a threat. And if a civilian should happen to be shot it’s probably treated as collateral damage, or the person was running the risk.

Any body using their rifle sight in a civilian walk of life to identify and confirm targets should not be using a rifle.

It is the fundamental reason why I am opposed to night vision optics on rifles. I do not think image quality is good enough. I still think a decent optic and a spotlight is much much safer.

 

[Tazz]

Hi guys

I'm curious really. I use mid priced kit for the most part. But I find myself bringing my binoculars less frequently now.

As far as I can see- binoculars have traditionally had two purposes.

1) Spotting and scanning for quarry

2) Identifying and examining quarry, selecting suitable animals, identifying specific deer etc

IMO a thermal has pretty much made 1) irrelevant now. It's a skill I try to maintain- but it's hard.


2) is still very much needed. And binoculars are the best at it IMO. £200 of used binoculars out perform £400 of used scope IME.

But- if one has spotted deer with a thermal- and they are in a safe position to aim a rifle, one can examine them safely through a scope.

Thus- unless light is on the very limit (where the additional light gathering of binoculars is needed to study, but a shot is possible with a scope)- a thermal and a scope is sufficient for most tasks.

Very interested to hear others opinions There's an argument that smaller lighter binoculars are now more useful- where the effort and hassle of carrying them is less. But in doing so, their performance over a scope optic is likely less (quality dependent) and so as their size decreases, perhaps their optical advantage decreases too.

If I left home to go stalking and 15 minutes down the road I realised I had my thermal spotter but forgotten my Binos ( Swaro boy) I would plough on, if I had forgotten my Thermal but had my binos, I would be turning around

 

[jimmer.13]

I dont
Never have
Never will

Yes in my opinion.

As for standard operating procedure’s for military - well soldiers when on patrol are doing a very very different job to a deer stalker of fox shooter.

In military, if you are in an active war zone every person is viewed as a threat. And if a civilian should happen to be shot it’s probably treated as collateral damage, or the person was running the risk.

Any body using their rifle sight in a civilian walk of life to identify and confirm targets should not be using a rifle.

It is the fundamental reason why I am opposed to night vision optics on rifles. I do not think image quality is good enough. I still think a decent optic and a spotlight

Yes in my opinion.

As for standard operating procedure’s for military - well soldiers when on patrol are doing a very very different job to a deer stalker of fox shooter.

In military, if you are in an active war zone every person is viewed as a threat. And if a civilian should happen to be shot it’s probably treated as collateral damage, or the person was running the risk.

Any body using their rifle sight in a civilian walk of life to identify and confirm targets should not be using a rifle.

It is the fundamental reason why I am opposed to night vision optics on rifles. I do not think image quality is good enough. I still think a decent optic and a spotlight is much much safer.

Head keeper on the lamp would of sacked me if I was to fanny about with binos and second guess everything he lit up for me.
Set of eyes he deemed to be a fox.
Lights out drive to a safe position if required.. out the truck rifle on bonnet confirm quarry and backstop in the scope rack up a round. Job done in seconds.
I’m sure the majority of shooters who do this for a living do it the same way only now we do it with thermal and night vision.
Nothing dangerous if you are competent and operate safely.

 

[yellow belly]

In military, if you are in an active war zone every person is viewed as a threat. And if a civilian should happen to be shot it’s probably treated as collateral damage,

What utter utter bollocks!

 

[NewForester]

Hi guys

I'm curious really. I use mid priced kit for the most part. But I find myself bringing my binoculars less frequently now.

As far as I can see- binoculars have traditionally had two purposes.

1) Spotting and scanning for quarry

2) Identifying and examining quarry, selecting suitable animals, identifying specific deer etc

IMO a thermal has pretty much made 1) irrelevant now. It's a skill I try to maintain- but it's hard.


2) is still very much needed. And binoculars are the best at it IMO. £200 of used binoculars out perform £400 of used scope IME.

But- if one has spotted deer with a thermal- and they are in a safe position to aim a rifle, one can examine them safely through a scope.

Thus- unless light is on the very limit (where the additional light gathering of binoculars is needed to study, but a shot is possible with a scope)- a thermal and a scope is sufficient for most tasks.

Very interested to hear others opinions There's an argument that smaller lighter binoculars are now more useful- where the effort and hassle of carrying them is less. But in doing so, their performance over a scope optic is likely less (quality dependent) and so as their size decreases, perhaps their optical advantage decreases too.

I think that you still need both, but the binos can now be smaller and lighter. I was sitting a high seat in a wood when a whole herd of fallow suddenly appeared and I needed to scan through the animals to find a pricket. You wouldn't want to be moving a rifle barrel around like that.

I have some ex army, toughened case, fantastic optics but a little heavy Leicas. It has crossed my mind that I could swap those for my wife's much, much cheaper, smaller, and lighter Vortex but still with pretty high quality lenses.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Fundamentally the rifle should only be pointed at something you want to destroy. A scope is for aiming the rifle.

It is not something for selecting a target.

Binoculars are a must for clearly identifying a deer and selecting it as a cull animal.

Sooner or later there is going to be a terrible accident where somebody uses the thermal image to select an animal in poor light and then shoots. Only to find that it was a person.

In the UK, we have very few hunting accidents and long may it remain.

In other parts of the world there are many hunting accidents, most of which are the hunter thinking the object is a deer and shooting. I have previously posted a summary report of such incidents in New Zealand where there have many such incidents each year.

Overwhelming response from SD members was that I was talking shite and it would never happen.

The above attitude is exactly what will lead to such accidents.

I think it's probably worth distinguishing between

1) scanning for deer with a handheld thermal, and then shooting them with a thermal scope.

Vs

2) scanning with a handheld thermal, pointing a rifle with optics at any heatsource to confirm quarry, then scanning for a target amongst quarry before shooting

vs

3) scanning with a handheld thermal at heatsource that are clearly distinguishable as deer, their location and species can be identified with the naked eye, a safe shooting position is established, at which point a rifle is pointed at them and an appropriate target is chosen.

I would never do 1 or 2.

3 is what I'm describing.

I would agree that it probably isn't considered "best practice"- but rotating the rifle around on sticks- in the knowledge that any and all deer being examined are in a safe shooting location- isn't unsafe IMO.

What I didn't mention is I do carry a rangefinder. Only a 6x- and despite being a Leica it's a 6x20 or something so not brilliant- it is handy as a quick ID tool. It requires less movement for one thing. See a small thermal source on the ground? Is it a hare or a deers head lying down etc ?

I think some on here generally feel that binoculars are less useful than they used to be- and ideally one would reduce their bulk and weight- but if one still relies on them for quarry identification- then low light performance is still vital- in which case dropping down to some 28s or 32s may make them even less useful.

Therefore- I can see why they are a bit "all or nothing".