Is he "one" something? Kool Aid? What? English guns! Yeah right!

enfieldspares

Well-Known Member


What? Listen mate I sold my single (as in one gun on its own not a "single barrel") Boss in December 2021 for what, now, in September 2023 I could buy a PAIR of them for. The value of side by side 2 1/2" English guns has fallen through the floor. The same with AYA No4 guns. I bought this, near little used, 27" barrels, ejector, 1 4 3/4" stock, at Southams last week for £75 including the premium and commission. Four years ago it'd have been at least £100 and ten years ago at least £200.

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More and more I think his videos are little but advertising "puff" for what he has to sell. The Alex Martin is listed at £950...with a 13 3/4" stock. All good luck to him but I think his videos should really be taken with a pinch of salt or two.
 
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Most youtube videos are just adverts now IMO.

That's a guy who knows lots about guns (although he is quite odd. I'm not sure if I would want him as my face of the channel) but nothing about cars or the housing market, trying to draw parallels, all whilst plugging his channel and subscribers multiple times. He came across as a budget car salesman with his stumbling BS- not a premium gun dealer.

He reminds me of some chap on TV talking about antiques as investments. They are still through the floor 12 years later.

His comparisons to cars are interesting. Most cars have gone up. But when compared with inflation and other investments, most cars have not done that well. And a couple of years after covid, they are set to do far worse.

Only very rare and special cars have done v well- cars that were already well beyond the reach of ordinary people have gone crazy. Most other cars have just kept up with inflation and perhaps covered some of their servicing costs too.

Perhaps the £50k shotguns will be ok investments. Someone who owns those will be able to afford custom cartridges which are safe for their barrels- or rebarrel and not worry about the money.

But a £1-2k shotgun investment? I don't see it personally.
 
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Wishful thinking at its best, a 2 or 21/2“ chambered gun is downright dangerous in an age where 2 3/4” is standard.
Then theres twin triggers and hefty recoil compared to your trusty O/U.
Old SBS guns are a very specialised tool for a niche market nowadays, not really something you’d recommend as an all round gun.
Theres relatively few people in a position to hang on to a gun they don’t use, I personally can’t afford to tie up a slot for a once a year cabinet queen.
 
Wishful thinking at its best, a 2 or 21/2“ chambered gun is downright dangerous in an age where 2 3/4” is standard.
Then theres twin triggers and hefty recoil compared to your trusty O/U.
Old SBS guns are a very specialised tool for a niche market nowadays, not really something you’d recommend as an all round gun.
Theres relatively few people in a position to hang on to a gun they don’t use, I personally can’t afford to tie up a slot for a once a year cabinet queen.

Funny- I'm not really a shotgunner- but do many shotgunners struggle for space on their SGC?

As you say- for many guns there are more than one thing against them-

Chamber
Barrels and steel
recoil and handling
short stocks
twin triggers

Those are a lot of compromises. And to take it out and enjoy on occasion- it does sour the day a little if you hit 30% less than you normally would with one if your regular guns that have none of the above compromises.

New money could take a liking to them I suppose. Arabs or Chinese etc (perhaps they already do?). But as I said before- I can't see that happening on a £1k gun and that's quite a risk for most people to tie up £10k into a shotgun on the chance it will appreciate.
 
Funny- I'm not really a shotgunner- but do many shotgunners struggle for space on their SGC?

As you say- for many guns there are more than one thing against them-

Chamber
Barrels and steel
recoil and handling
short stocks
twin triggers

Those are a lot of compromises. And to take it out and enjoy on occasion- it does sour the day a little if you hit 30% less than you normally would with one if your regular guns that have none of the above compromises.

New money could take a liking to them I suppose. Arabs or Chinese etc (perhaps they already do?). But as I said before- I can't see that happening on a £1k gun and that's quite a risk for most people to tie up £10k into a shotgun on the chance it will appreciate.
Just to clarify, I have and dote upon, a SBS, a Spanish sidelock with 2 3/4” chambers, double triggers and a straight hand stock.
It gets used almost exclusively for shooting over dogs and maybe twice a year a trip to the clay ground.
It kicks a lot more than my O/U, it’s certainly not a tool I’d recommend to someone starting out or looking for a general purpose shotgun. Its designed purely as a game gun, to be carried a lot, looked at a lot and shot a little.
And that’s the nub of the problem with old SBS’s, they’re specialist game guns that no longer suit todays shooting scene.
 
I love the fact that nobody seems capable of using a 2 1/2” side by side with double triggers. Just buy 2 1/2” cartridges and only take them out with you. It keeps the price low.

A properly fitted gun and good technique a side by side doesn’t kick.

The secret is learning to hold the barrels properly with your fore arm pretty straight. It does the aiming / pointing of the gun and adsorbs the recoil. Trigger hand simply lifts stock to shoulder.

It’s a bit the joy of driving a car with a manual box and needing to double de clutch. It’s something you learn to do and gives huge satisfaction - far far more so than pulling a paddle on the steering wheel and the computer blipping the throttle.

I have shot several over and under clay guns. They are very efficient tools. But they have no soul. A bit like driving a modern automatic car down the motorway on cruise control.
 
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There’s certainly a place for run of the mill SXS guns. Their lightness means they are good for any shooting where there’s a lot of walking and not a lot of shooting. Plus, they can act as a spare for your O/U should it have a problem. You can argue that they are more pleasing on the eye too. But the potential imminent demise of lead shot is the main driver of the plummeting price of them. Most gun shops don’t want them as part exchanges, even ejectors. To buy them as a financial investment isn’t really a goer, although who really knows? Instead, get one as a practical tool. And pay a relative pittance. Win, win!
 
I have just watched the video. Its pretty awful.

For a start Alex Martin is not, never has been and never will be an English gunmaker. Alex Martin is a Scottish Gunmaker.

However I do agree with his sentiment English and Scottish guns will come back into fashion. Indeed they already are.

But there are two types of guns.

1) Fine guns - ie best quality when built, that are in well cared for but original condition and that have not been buggered around with or restored or reconditioned.

They didn’t make many of these, and to buy new hand built sidelock today will cost you well over £100,000 from a British maker.

These guns are like fine art. They hold value, appreciate and go down, but fundamentally will give enormous pleasure.

Brand and provenance are important. And fine guns by makers still in business command significantly higher prices than those who are long gone.

2) Usable guns - these are the ones are more affordable and usable. They are used, not abused, may have been refreshed but still in reasonable condition. They may have a new set of barrels at some point, or they have had a superb sleeve job.

This also includes the guns may not be in perfect condition. Bluing rather tired, or there is light pitting in the barrels, or frankly wall measurements are still OK but they have been honed at some point.

These are not investment grade, they are use them, care fir them and pass them down or pass them on for similar sort of money type guns.

3) The Dogs - there are plenty out there. I looked at Sidelock a few weeks ago. A good name on it but it was originally a Birmingham made trade gun to which maker had put its name on. But it wasn’t right. It didn’t handle properly. At some point it had been rebarreled and restocked. The barrels had probably come off a lesser gun and been made to fit. And the stocking was good enough. But the telling part was the handling - well fence posts handle better. Somebody had spent good money on having it put together. But the asking price reflected the handling. Somebody will love it.

Cartridges and in particular Steel. If in doubt you can use Bismuth. And there other alloys being developed such as Hortonium, which mimic lead. This will become available. Bismuth is expensive, but in an old gun on a days walked up shooting you will only fire a few shots. At £1.50 a bang, it still doesn’t add up to a huge amount.

Or use a steel cartridge designed for old guns. Gamebore Regal Steel, or Eley GrandPrix steel.

Side by sides were designed to use 1oz or 1 1/16oz of shot. That’s 24 or 28gm in new money (I think).

If you want to use high velocity steel go and buy a semi or heavy over and under.

Or get a heavily built side by side. I had a AyA no3 Magnum which had had a steady diet of 3” high speed steel through it. I like the gun, but could not hit with it so moved it on.
 
Couldn't watch that video through
Most annoying chap
Apparently he would love to hear my comments.....
I highly doubt that!

That gun is far to short for him and will undoubtedly "kick a little"
There is already a strong market for decent quality "British Guns"
Is it of the heyday era? No. prices of pairs of Purdeys and Hollands should give that away.
But Best London and Scottish guns are still selling well

We sell some side by sides within 24 hours of listing them

2 1/2" is not a problem
A gentleman knows where to get cartridges for a gentleman's gun.

Double triggers? Its not that hard really now is it?
 
Don't shoot Oxford gun Company clay ground with a £300 20 bore as according to them they are old hat now along with a sidelock sbs.
What you really need is a £3200 12 bore Browning Ultra XS Pro of which we've just taken delivery of 12 of them.🤔🤔
 
I am a freelancer and do a lot of video shooting/editing. Tried to watch it and I can't!!

The edit on that video is truly atrocious! He either waffles or makes mistakes a lot and they have just sliced out the chunks, obviously only shot with one camera, but they could have added some B-roll close ups (taken afterwards) to hide the cuts.
 
Oh they will certainly increase in value , no question at all. I mean they could not possibly fall any lower As more or scrapped and folks get their head around shooting a very nice light traditional gun walking up for a brace of grouse or absconded pheasant etc . 2 or 3 shots of home rolled 2 1/2" bismuth or a full box of 25 even to last you through a season or few ?
Problem is now less of us appreciate the simple joy of popping out for a few hours with the dog not really worrying if they are going to get much at all
 
Thankfully , we are on the receiving end of the depressed market for SXS shotguns in the UK . Some of the gun shops I frequent have imported , literally , hundreds of them . Some are a bit rough , but there are some beautiful , best quality guns selling for a fraction of what they were a few years ago . I'm holding out for something nice with back action sidelocks , rebounding hammers and a Jones under lever , apparently , there will be a few available before Xmas . The above pretty much says where I fall in the new O/U versus vintage SXS debate . That being said , we're not looking at a lead ban here.

AB
 
Hmmm.
Fashions come and fashions go. It really is down to the beholder - many of whom are “seduced” into buying the latest thing by clever marketing or just because they can - a certain rifle chambering (think of man buns) has taken the US market by storm yet if you look past the clever hype it really offers very little beyond what is available in several other similar or even identical chamberings.
But hey-ho does it really matter? Out of my cabinet of shotguns it is my AYA 20 double triggered SBS will be with me for life, either walked up or driven it just works - for me. Sure it’s worth virtually nothing now but it is the one I lift practically on every outing and a good shot well taken with it is a pleasure and another great memory to join many gone before.
The older I get the more I believe it is what you have proved through practical experience floats YOUR boat that matters - side by side/over and under or semi-auto matters not a jot not nor does what you are told by those whose experience is in marketing rather than shooting..
🦊🦊
 
Wishful thinking at its best, a 2 or 21/2“ chambered gun is downright dangerous in an age where 2 3/4” is standard.
Then theres twin triggers and hefty recoil compared to your trusty O/U.
Old SBS guns are a very specialised tool for a niche market nowadays, not really something you’d recommend as an all round gun.
Theres relatively few people in a position to hang on to a gun they don’t use, I personally can’t afford to tie up a slot for a once a year cabinet queen.
Slots aren’t required for shotguns over here, we can own as many as we can secure. Are they limited in Ireland?

I have an old Laurina SxS, twin trigger, prefer it to my beretta OU!
 
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