Another Twist The Shotgun Lead Cartridge Debate

B&W FOX

Well-Known Member
This article was posted recently relating clay shooting.
The fact that shooters at the top of their game shoot thousands of cartridges a year both in practice and competition and are sponsored by all the leading gun and cartridge manufactures makes you wonder where this will go.


The general position of ISSF and FITASC on lead in ammunition: There is no equivalent alternative to lead
“ISSF and FITASC, as two major international shooting sport federations, regulate shooting sport around the world and therefore must manage and reconcile the rules of the sport considering the differences in social and environmental conditions in different parts of the world,” the joint communiqué dated September 1, 2023 reads. “The history and consistency of the disciplines of our sport are based on technical standards that apply worldwide. These include the type of firearms and ammunition to ensure the best and equal conditions in international but also national competitions. Adhering to the health and environmental objectives pursued by the European Commission, ISSF/FITASC must ensure that the clay target sport shooting disciplines are sustainable in the long term.”

Stressing how major international shooting sport championships such as Olympic Games, World Championships, World Cups etc. take place in large shooting sport centers that could meet some of the requirements of the ECHA derogations, ISSF and FITAS also point out that there are only a few such centers in Europe while “an essential prerequisite for the continued success of our sport is a complex network of different sized shooting ranges with different disciplines, which are used by sports shooters at different levels.”

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Luciano Rossi, President of the International Shooting Sports Federation, expressed concern that an attack on lead could lead to the demise of clay target sport shooting as we know it today.
In the opinion of Luciano Rossi (ISSF President) and Jean-François Palinkas (FITASC President), “The requirements proposed by ECHA are neither practicable nor necessary given the risks they pose” because “in several European countries, most clay target shooting ranges are small to medium-sized and are run by local shooting, hunting or reserve clubs on a voluntary basis,” they explain. “Therefore, ISSF/FITASC have grave concerns regarding the currently proposed restrictions on the use of lead ammunition for clay target shooting sport prepared by ECHA and now submitted to the European Commission: The proposed restrictions provide some derogation conditions which are not scientifically justified and will end competitive sports shooting and will conduct to many clay target range bankrupts.”

ISSF / FITASC official statement on the ban of lead in ammunition from September 2023:
- Based on current knowledge, only lead meets the ballistic and economic requirements necessary for the practice of all clay target sport shooting disciplines. Ammunition made of other materials, due to their different ballistic and/or economic properties, are today unsuitable to clay target sport shooting, including a lack of the necessary precision for our sport, ensured safety of the athletes, financial challenges for the range owners etc.

- Clay target sport shooting absolutely need an enduring exemption to continue to allow the use of lead thus securing the industry's investment and the ability of the sports facilities to operate;

- ISSF/FITASC support that the exemption on the use of lead for the clay target sport shooting, be coupled with the implementation of agreed to, site-specific risk management measures, throughout Europe.

In their joint statement, ISSF / FITASC also say that they “commit to continuing research to find material/ technology alternative to lead, with equivalent or very close ballistic and economic properties and without negative effects for health and environment”. You can't use lead? Well, find another material, they say from the EU. But it's not that simple:

Why the industry has no real alternative on lead for shot shells for sport shooters?
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It should be considered that not all countries in the world, fortunately for them, follow the EU regulations. No problem for them, indeed.
Unfortunately, the matter is more complex than appears at first sight. The use of steel shot has not gained international acceptance for safety reasons (dangerous ricochets due to the hard material) for Trap and Skeet. Copper, for example, is one of the candidates as a substitute for lead in ammo in other areas like hunting. But copper is a strategic material also for the future of electric mobility, and will, long term, become too expensive for the ammunition industry. Moreover, ECHA will do everything to further discredit copper as a material for outdoor use when lead is banned, and we all know that there are some reasons, since the aquatoxicity of copper is well known. In any case, copper is not an alternative for many areas of civilian ammunition and in no way an alternative for Olympic disciplines like Trap and Skeet.

So: no lead, no steel, no copper... What else should the Industry use? After all, the periodic table only has 118 elements. The naked truth is that hunting and sport shooting will be reduced dramatically and banned in many areas – which is probably the ultimate political goal of the lead ban crusade.
 
I am sure BASC and the British Game Alliance will be along soon to say we could used this, that, or any other thing. Fairy wishes, wizards' invocations or maybe perhaps elves's bollocks. Because most else of what BASC have done in proactively pushing for and now collaborating with the proposals to ban lead shot for all game shooters to further the BGA line to protect the "big bag" boys saying their head if game shot isn't at all excessive as it is sold into the food chain is little removed from that just that...wishes, invocations and bollocks.
 
Make a few changes to layouts and shoot steel . Although ricochet is more likely with steel it was never exactly ricochet free with Lead .
also load weights and shot size limits should be looked at along with layouts
To say Clay shooting cannot or rather wont adapt to none lead is not going to work into the future
 
The more I hear about steel shot the more it appears to be a poor substitute for lead I suspect that if the deciding factor was ballistics rather than cost it would soon disappear into obscurity
 
Adapt the rules for ammunition in skeet and trap for steel, let olympic competitors shoot with lead at special ranges. I cant see any of our local ranges here in northern Sweden to adapt to have high walls and a water management system.

I used a new BioAmmo for grouse this year harder than lead, more brittle than steel supposed to be used with half choke or tighter, I mixed them with old lead ammo they both worked the same if I did my part.
 
Where was that posted and who wrote it? AI? Translated into English from another language? Or just really poorly written?

It's also total bollocks throughout.

If there is a lead ban, then it should be outright. There should be no derogations especially not for clay pigeon shooting.
 
Well, well, well ! Its a mess, isn't it ? Lead worked very, very well. All the other alternatives seem to fall short. It was not broke so why did it need fixing ? Why oh why did the shooting organisations force us to take a mad dash headlong into change? What can we do about it ? I have a simple solution ! Give the problem to the Prime Minister to sort out. We will not have to worry about it for another five years.
 
Adapt the rules for ammunition in skeet and trap for steel, let olympic competitors shoot with lead at special ranges. I cant see any of our local ranges here in northern Sweden to adapt to have high walls and a water management system.

I used a new BioAmmo for grouse this year harder than lead, more brittle than steel supposed to be used with half choke or tighter, I mixed them with old lead ammo they both worked the same if I did my part.
It just goes to show how different people see things.
I am in the fortunate position to shoot game and wildfowl and watch other shoot for some 200 days of the year almost.
I have tried umpteen time to use steel for various from pigeon to geese and find all of it wanting.
Yes it will kill, but NOWHERE near as effectively at normal lead ranges.
I have watched other from the UK and various European countries using steel shot and i see the same thing over and over, they simply do not have the killing power.
If I was only left with steel to shoot geese I would pack up as In general i simply cannot get close enough to them for clean kills, yet I have no problems with lead.
When it comes to clay pigeon shooting, i dont do it so cannot comment from personal experience. Having said that I have watched some exceptional fitasc shooters both here and in Europe and some of the shots are quite frankly too far for steel, one would have to resort to large payloads in 76mm cartridges and suffer the recoil effects.
 
It just goes to show how different people see things.
I am in the fortunate position to shoot game and wildfowl and watch other shoot for some 200 days of the year almost.
I have tried umpteen time to use steel for various from pigeon to geese and find all of it wanting.
Yes it will kill, but NOWHERE near as effectively at normal lead ranges.
I have watched other from the UK and various European countries using steel shot and i see the same thing over and over, they simply do not have the killing power.
If I was only left with steel to shoot geese I would pack up as In general i simply cannot get close enough to them for clean kills, yet I have no problems with lead.
When it comes to clay pigeon shooting, i dont do it so cannot comment from personal experience. Having said that I have watched some exceptional fitasc shooters both here and in Europe and some of the shots are quite frankly too far for steel, one would have to resort to large payloads in 76mm cartridges and suffer the recoil effects.
I have shot grouse with leadfree ammo a small bird at closer distance, I havn`t shot geese but for roe deer, capercallie and fox I will still use 36g of US3 lead.
 
Make a few changes to layouts and shoot steel . Although ricochet is more likely with steel it was never exactly ricochet free with Lead .
also load weights and shot size limits should be looked at along with layouts
To say Clay shooting cannot or rather wont adapt to none lead is not going to work into the future
one other issue with steel shot cartridges is noise, the report is considerably louder than clay pigeon lead cartridges, probably due to the need to drive the shot faster to get usable terminal ballistics.
Noise pollution can and has closed clay grounds or involve expensive alterations like high earth banks installed few small not for profit clubs will unlikely not have the financial way to meet that expense.

Making a few changes may not be as simple as you think, fallout area, direction of shot and noise all factor in as will the available area a club operates within.

I agree with you that saying the alternatives to lead are too expensive or impractical will not be an excuse, however a ban on lead will I predict see many small clubs close, clubs that have been the backbone for the growth of clay shooting in this country for many years, I am secretary of one such Club.

In fifty plus years of clay shooting most Sunday mornings, I must be lucky as I have never known a lead shot pellet to ricochet, .22lr etc yes but not a 2.0 to 2.5mm diameter lead pellet.

Lets be honest the only reason steel shot is championed as an alternative is due to price, not for any other reason if suddenly an alternative non toxic same price as steel shot became available steel would be dropped in a heart beat.
 
I have tried all the alternatives to lead in both shotgun and centre fire rifles. I fully agree with Levigsp. Why oh why did "our" organisations rush headlong into blurting out that we will cease to use lead. The burden they have left us with will rumble on for many, many years. I really hope that those who self inflicted this upon us have the decency to apologise and resign, but the fact remains that the damage has been done.
 
Why oh why did the shooting organisations force us to take a mad dash headlong into change?
BASC forced us into it to support its investment and underwriting of the British Game Alliance.

This being set up to protect the "big bag boys" from accusations of simply using live birds as little more than feather bearing clay targets because "what is shot is sold as food" and as lead is unarguably a poison so lead had to go to protect that argument. So sacrificed on the altar of "big bag" commercial shooting.

No thought for the small farm shoot, syndicate of family and friends, or the pigeon shooter them all keeping what they shoot. They all got thrown under the bus to protect the "big bag boys". Simply BASC didn't give a damn and now has the nonsense of saying that whilst lead shot in game is "bad" and it therefore promoted this voluntary ban lead (shards) in deer apparently aren't "bad"! The logic of the lunatic asylum has triumphed.

And from what I hear said BASC "bounced" such as SACS into co-signing. The CPSA declined to sign.
 
one other issue with steel shot cartridges is noise, the report is considerably louder than clay pigeon lead cartridges, probably due to the need to drive the shot faster to get usable terminal ballistics.
Noise pollution can and has closed clay grounds or involve expensive alterations like high earth banks installed few small not for profit clubs will unlikely not have the financial way to meet that expense.

Making a few changes may not be as simple as you think, fallout area, direction of shot and noise all factor in as will the available area a club operates within.

I agree with you that saying the alternatives to lead are too expensive or impractical will not be an excuse, however a ban on lead will I predict see many small clubs close, clubs that have been the backbone for the growth of clay shooting in this country for many years, I am secretary of one such Club.

In fifty plus years of clay shooting most Sunday mornings, I must be lucky as I have never known a lead shot pellet to ricochet, .22lr etc yes but not a 2.0 to 2.5mm diameter lead pellet.

Lets be honest the only reason steel shot is championed as an alternative is due to price, not for any other reason if suddenly an alternative non toxic same price as steel shot became available steel would be dropped in a heart beat.
One guy in my old wildfowling club lost an eye to a lead pellet ricochet ! Steel has not got the range of lead , lead shot is by far and away carries more energy further down range . Steel none the less is more likely to ricochet on impact , those shooting among trees should be super cautious and certainly keep shooting glasses on . Having been hit myself from steel bounce back off timber i can attest it hurts and easy enough energy to blind . Like i say i knew a guy who lost an eye from lead ricochet so the same safety rules should really apply .
Steel looses velocity fast so when calculating max fall out range for clay grounds say , it could possibly be shortened perhaps ? Once mandated and its certainly coming
As steel has more pellets to make up a regulation clay load and clays dont need a lot of killing , steel shot likely holds the competitive edge in a small pellet fast steel load when correctly choked
Personally speaking after a lot of use of steel , i prefer it in the field ( the only downside is broken teeth if you bite down on a pellet ) . This is mitigated by how the bird is butchered and some birds will carry perfectly healed up steel pellets within areas of apparently shot free locations . Myself and my Mrs have both damaged a tooth on steel but then how many lead pellets or lead contaminated meat have we consumed ?
Regular clay grounds that dont host international events will certainly have to stop shooting lead soon enough and in time i guess so will International clay comps ? Skeet could likely look different ?
 
One guy in my old wildfowling club lost an eye to a lead pellet ricochet ! Steel has not got the range of lead , lead shot is by far and away carries more energy further down range . Steel none the less is more likely to ricochet on impact , those shooting among trees should be super cautious and certainly keep shooting glasses on . Having been hit myself from steel bounce back off timber i can attest it hurts and easy enough energy to blind . Like i say i knew a guy who lost an eye from lead ricochet so the same safety rules should really apply .
Steel looses velocity fast so when calculating max fall out range for clay grounds say , it could possibly be shortened perhaps ? Once mandated and its certainly coming
As steel has more pellets to make up a regulation clay load and clays dont need a lot of killing , steel shot likely holds the competitive edge in a small pellet fast steel load when correctly choked
Personally speaking after a lot of use of steel , i prefer it in the field ( the only downside is broken teeth if you bite down on a pellet ) . This is mitigated by how the bird is butchered and some birds will carry perfectly healed up steel pellets within areas of apparently shot free locations . Myself and my Mrs have both damaged a tooth on steel but then how many lead pellets or lead contaminated meat have we consumed ?
Regular clay grounds that dont host international events will certainly have to stop shooting lead soon enough and in time i guess so will International clay comps ? Skeet could likely look different ?

Do you work for the HSE? as you appear to know what the outcome of the lead ban will be.

Fortunately we don’t eat clay pigeons 😊

Wildfowling is a seasonal minority activity, game shooting also seasonal and pigeon shooting reasonably popular but if no pigeons no shooting. Clay shooting is all year round and financially significantly important to the viability of the shooting industry.

Regular clay grounds that don’t host international events are probably around 97% of the shooting grounds the backbone of the working man who enjoys clay shooting. Lose a high percentage of them and the already faltering shooting industry will be in free fall. We have already seen two grounds close within the last couple of years and a third is at this time considering its future and that’s without a lead ban and any financial burden using steel shot will potentially put on a ground.

Lead shot in a confined area of a clay ground is not a risk to man or the environment, the military will continue to shoot tonnes of the lead on the likes of Hythe and Lydd ranges, currently more than ever as training a certain countries troops.
 
Do you work for the HSE? as you appear to know what the outcome of the lead ban will be.

Fortunately we don’t eat clay pigeons 😊

Wildfowling is a seasonal minority activity, game shooting also seasonal and pigeon shooting reasonably popular but if no pigeons no shooting. Clay shooting is all year round and financially significantly important to the viability of the shooting industry.

Regular clay grounds that don’t host international events are probably around 97% of the shooting grounds the backbone of the working man who enjoys clay shooting. Lose a high percentage of them and the already faltering shooting industry will be in free fall. We have already seen two grounds close within the last couple of years and a third is at this time considering its future and that’s without a lead ban and any financial burden using steel shot will potentially put on a ground.

Lead shot in a confined area of a clay ground is not a risk to man or the environment, the military will continue to shoot tonnes of the lead on the likes of Hythe and Lydd ranges, currently more than ever as training a certain countries troops.
Forces are in process changing to none toxic Radwell changed production this year i do believe .
If lead is no danger consider the costs incurred as grounds are actually being made to clean up lead effectively .
Of course the Military can use depleted uranium etc but the trend is none lead for small arms
I have shot steel from shotguns almost exclusively for over a decade or so . There is no big issue with it other than getting the wads sorted and a means of making production economic in the uk .
Upside besides the toxic nature of lead for clay grounds is steel size for size looses energy faster than lead . Those who have used it on game / fowl frequently know all about that 5- 10 yards too far thing when on steel
 
The EU must be shaking if the views of ISSF and FITASC are against them! Can we get tham to take a stance against Putin?

No doubt their huffing and puffing like the 3 little pigs will impress those following them :evil:
 
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