Voluntary Annual Assessment - Poll

[Bowland blades]

I’m really surprised there is either a lack of understanding in or acceptance of the explanation Mr Selous provides for what amounts to ‘calling’ his shots. Anyone who’s shot at paper under even the most mildly competitive scenario will know that with practice you become all too painfully aware - prior to bullet impact - of those shots released/slipped at other than the moment of perfect aim.

I therefore don’t understand why it’s such a stretch of the imagination to accept a deerstalker may be given of the same ability and in consequence be confident in knowing when to justifiably question movement of a scope’s zero.

K

To explain "1" from poa on a deer " 1 " off on a flat paper target is a different matter . its pretty much impossible to get such a perfect placement on a deer ( unless you aim at the eye or the literal ear hole itself ! ) to know you where an inch off you need to pick a small and definite target to aim at and be sure its dead 90 to you.
to be fair if i tested my zero on a target and found i was an inch off perfect i should have to be 100% it wasn't simply a missed little bit of wind and that's with a perfect aiming point

 

[Free range rob]

I don’t think anyone mentioned 1/2 inch. I was talking about within 1 inch radius so a 2 inch diameter circle for a 100m shot of where the cross hairs were when the shot broke. I find that very achievable at normal stalking ranges.

Ok, so an inch in any direction from poa, I think my reply still stands if that’s on the shoulder of a bigger species, smaller species it may well be noticeable, on paper it certainly is noticeable,

Use the best scope rings & mounts and indeed you won’t need to.

K

Exactly what I do on all my rifles

 

[bowji john]

[QUOTE="….. paper doesn’t lie …..[/QUOTE]

A phrase I use all the time with students

 

[NoIDeer]

An example of what I think Selous is talking about. A couple of weeks ago I shot a muntjac, sights bang centre between eyes. Bullet hit slightly on the inside of its right eye about half an inch off at 65 yards, animal dead as a dodo. Logged the slightly off shot, could have been clean barrel first shot, flinch or lost zero. Next head shot muntjac bang on point of aim, happy days, first shot from clean barrel.

 

[Free range rob]

An example of what I think Selous is talking about. A couple of weeks ago I shot a muntjac, sights bang centre between eyes. Bullet hit slightly on the inside of its right eye about half an inch off at 65 yards, animal dead as a dodo. Logged the slightly off shot, could have been clean barrel first shot, flinch or lost zero. Next head shot muntjac bang on point of aim, happy days, first shot from clean barrel.

Makes sense on a munt with eyes/ears/nose as a reference to see your poa.
Now do it on a reds shoulder and say the same thing, if you can, fair play to you

 

[bowji john]

I struggle to see how target shooting and stalking are not mutually supportive disciplines

I can understand how a target shooter, with all the time in the world, might print excellent results on paper - but fall apart hunting

That can occur for a variety of reasons

I do not believe that a stalker who can’t hit jack sh*t on paper, suddenly turns into Chris Kyle on live game

What I do see at my place is a lot of shooters deluding themselves

Shooting at 6” gongs down to 1” gongs they think they are doing well

A miss on a 2” gong is often followed by

“ooooh - only just missed”

Then stunned silence when they review their results on paper and find that the 2” black dot remains virginal and untouched with a spread of shots around the 5” target that looks like a shotgun spread

 

[Selous]

An example of what I think Selous is talking about. A couple of weeks ago I shot a muntjac, sights bang centre between eyes. Bullet hit slightly on the inside of its right eye about half an inch off at 65 yards, animal dead as a dodo. Logged the slightly off shot, could have been clean barrel first shot, flinch or lost zero. Next head shot muntjac bang on point of aim, happy days, first shot from clean barrel.

Precisely…. I know where my bullet should go and expect it to hit there….Aim small, Miss small and all that jazz!

 

[Selous]

I struggle to see how target shooting and stalking are not mutually supportive disciplines

I can understand how a target shooter, with all the time in the world, might print excellent results on paper - but fall apart hunting

That can occur for a variety of reasons

I do not believe that a stalker who can’t hit jack sh*t on paper, suddenly turns into Chris Kyle on live game

What I do see at my place is a lot of shooters deluding themselves

Shooting at 6” gongs down to 1” gongs they think they are doing well

A miss on a 2” gong is often followed by

“ooooh - only just missed”

Then stunned silence when they review their results on paper and find that the 2” black dot remains virginal and untouched with a spread of shots around the 5” target that looks like a shotgun spread

Makes sense on a munt with eyes/ears/nose as a reference to see your poa.
Now do it on a reds shoulder and say the same thing, if you can, fair play to you

Do red deer not have anatomy that can be referenced off even on a chest shot? Just checking because the ones I shoot seem to……

 

[NP435]

I see double edged sword to a competency exam, it might weed out a bad shot , possibly encourage those who need greater practice to improve skills. However would a government continue to allow the same poor shot to hold the FAC? I have seen a decent target shooter hit more deer in the hindquarters than the heart/lung area. I have also seen a fellow with more confidence than skill want to take the shot at 600 yards when he wasn't able to group under 4 inches at 100. This fellow I told him should he attempt the long shot I would take his rifle from him. In the end a pronghorn was taken at 75 yards a good clean kill by the same fellow.

 

[kenbro]

Good Evening All,


Following recent debate around deer stalking qualifications on various threads here I am curious to see peoples opinions on a voluntary annual assessment to demonstrate continued competency of practical marksmanship.

The assessment would offer several 'levels' to allow for 'grading' a candidates ability.

The assessment would be shot with three zeroing targets per candidate, one for each section of the assessment.

Gold
Five shots within 2" circumference circle around the bull, no time limit.
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 3" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 2" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Silver
Five shots within 3" circumference circle, no time limit (centred on bull).
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 4" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 3" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Bronze
Five shots within 4" circumference circle around the bull, no time limit (centred on bull).
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 5" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 4" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Ungraded
Candidate was unable to meet one or more of the criteria for Bronze, more practice/tuition is recommended.


The assessment can be shot up to twice if the candidate wished, with the higher grading of the two being the final result for that day.

The idea behind the design of the assessment being to demonstrate precision with the first target, then ability to cope under pressure with the latter two; building an appropriate position, making a good shot, then placing a follow up shot from that position within a reasonable time frame.

The bronze standard is done with the view it should roughly match a DSC One pass standard of marksmanship.


Would you take part in an annual assessment like this if it was for a very menial fee (£5-10 range fee?) which included sign off and proof of level obtained?

I am interested to hear peoples thoughts!


Ben

Only just seen this thread and gotta ask, Ben, do you know the difference between a Diameter and a Circumference?
Cheers, Ken.

 

[VSS]

Only just seen this thread and gotta ask, Ben, do you know the difference between a Diameter and a Circumference?
Cheers, Ken.

I believe that error was resolved a few pages back.

 

[kenbro]

I believe that error was resolved a few pages back.

That’s what I get for not reading ALL the boring bits.
Apologies, Ken.

 

[Bowland blades]

When i used to do target shooting " officially" I say officially because i havent been on a range for over a decade plus - however i still use approximately 1000 rounds pa in practice . I took out quite a few high level target shooters for deer , fox , rabbits etc . Many of them although good on a range where sadly lacking on quarry , some terrible shooting i witnessed to say the least . It wasn't difficult shooting , it was the panic and nerves and basically not being able to keep thier sh1t together and take pretty easy shots. Last target shoot i attended was a BDS shoot , it was appalling! No real life stalking scenarios people trying for little groups on a paper deer and taking ages ( that you hardly ever get to take in the field ). I think some where horrified i wanted to shoot 100 off hand , no sticks etc - but that is the very practice most stalkers need. What happens when something goes wrong ( i have seen and experienced some of that while learning none toxic ) Some genuine running boar stands would be more use than seeing if you can do a sub moa group with lots of time and the scope set at some crazy high magnification.
Not trying to provocative here but perfectly seriously saying UK stalkers are not practicing for what we actually do enough and how to handle things when it all goes pear shaped one day . Running boar type shoots would be a very smart move , far more than 1000 yard prone with a back bag and bipod say. Certainly dont mean shooting at deer running as a primary shot , just in case your perfect shot didn't live up to expectations ( it only takes a good sized twig etc that you couldn't see ). A failed copper bullet etc etc...

 

[Bowland blades]

Only just seen this thread and gotta ask, Ben, do you know the difference between a Diameter and a Circumference?
Cheers, Ken.

plainly not eh?

 

[Ronin]

I struggle to see how target shooting and stalking are not mutually supportive disciplines

I can understand how a target shooter, with all the time in the world, might print excellent results on paper - but fall apart hunting

That can occur for a variety of reasons

I do not believe that a stalker who can’t hit jack sh*t on paper, suddenly turns into Chris Kyle on live game

What I do see at my place is a lot of shooters deluding themselves

Shooting at 6” gongs down to 1” gongs they think they are doing well

A miss on a 2” gong is often followed by

“ooooh - only just missed”

Then stunned silence when they review their results on paper and find that the 2” black dot remains virginal and untouched with a spread of shots around the 5” target that looks like a shotgun spread

Which is why disciplines like steel plate shooting have their place for enhancing target acquisition and positional skills but are lacking when looked at in terms of target size at deer related distances as the PRS targets are “large”

Perhaps a better reflection skill building practice may be using Chris Ways Riflekraft target or participate in MOA comps at Eskdalemuir (should one really wish to push boundaries) of comfort zone

And before anyone pipes up - I am not advocating attempting any shot on animals (deer) beyond a distance which one may absolutely reliably place within a 4” circle - repeatably

 

[bowji john]

I shall look up Chis Ways

 

[Ronin]

Afraid it’s now subscription only John but worthwhile for the tuition and examination feedback of targetry submitted

Rifle Kraft

$19 a month

 

[.222roebuck]

Not sure on that one , i know a few full time pro stalkers with big numbers to do every season ( guys with 20, 30, 40 years in) who will kill a deer with each round in their mag and then continue throwing singles in for some more. Only put a target up when they swap out a scope or rifle OR something goes wrong with the kit.
On the other hand i have known and taken out a fair few very good Target lads miss or make very poor shots , dont really understand why but i suspect its nervous trigger snatching or getting the wobbles real bad ?

As you say I never check zero unless I’m swapping a scope or something seems off , that being said I’m out 2-3 days a week so if somethings off I get to know about it pretty quickly

 

[artschool]

the reason i don’t mind sitting an annual shooting test is that i always think of the Dunning-Kruger effect and where i sit on the curve

 

[RescueMe0007]

the reason i don’t mind sitting an annual shooting test is that i always think of the Dunning-Kruger effect and where i sit on the curve

Well that had me researching, having done so I see your point!