keith@honda
Well-Known Member
when i did DSC level one rape poisoning was brought up mainly for Roe deer ,do other species also suffer from it?
rape poisoning
- Thread starter keith@honda
- Start date
monynut
Well-Known Member
keeperstweed
Well-Known Member
what an educational article!
excuse my ignorance, but i did not realize rape was such a bad diet for deer.
i have a few roe no the land i shoot over, and they always seem to be eating rape!!!
one of the questions on dscl1 "if a roe is feeding on rape and appears blind and no fear of man, it should culled and destroyed. unfit for human consumption."
what is the answer. a very early cull for the youngsters.
why cant they go into the food chain.
thanks for any replies, mark.
excuse my ignorance, but i did not realize rape was such a bad diet for deer.
i have a few roe no the land i shoot over, and they always seem to be eating rape!!!
one of the questions on dscl1 "if a roe is feeding on rape and appears blind and no fear of man, it should culled and destroyed. unfit for human consumption."
what is the answer. a very early cull for the youngsters.
why cant they go into the food chain.
thanks for any replies, mark.
My understanding was that blindness occurs as a result lesions on the brain affecting the visual cortex. The lesions themselves are as a result of Hydrogen Sulphide poisoning which is produced in the rumen as the body attempts to break down the plant. The hydrogen part coming from the stomach acid and the sulphur from the plant.
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Culled straight away regardless of seasons and age. I think as well as the blindness the deer will be suffering from things like atrophy as well as possible infections and toxins of stomach. I would not even consider letting it enter the food chain if it was blind but I don't know the offical answer. If it was feeding on Rape and appeared to show no signs then I would.
basil
Distinguished Member
"Culled straight away regardless of seasons or age"
What would happen in this scenario?
Supposing you shot the animal out of season and the law got involved. If you said it was blind through eating rape, you could be asked if you are qualified to make that judgement.
Animal welfare does have it`s place here but the law doesn`t always see it our way.
I know it`s a long shot that it would happen but it could.......................
Hi Basil, thats a valid point and a good challange.
Yes cull straight away if the deer appears blind and has no fear of man... Section 25 of the deer act Scotland 1996 will be your legal footing in my opinion. Qualifications such as DSC level one specifically mentions the symptoms and actions upon discovering such an animal.
In Scotland
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/58/pdfs/ukpga_19960058_en.pdf
25.
by any deer calf, fawn or kid deprived, or about to be deprived, of its mother.
England and Wales
Deer Act 1991, offences relating to deer, section 6 - general exceptions to certain provisions of this Act, Para (2) A person shall not be guilty of an offence under section 2 or section 3 above by reason of any act done for the purpose of preventing the suffering of an injured or diseased deer.
Yes cull straight away if the deer appears blind and has no fear of man... Section 25 of the deer act Scotland 1996 will be your legal footing in my opinion. Qualifications such as DSC level one specifically mentions the symptoms and actions upon discovering such an animal.
In Scotland
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/58/pdfs/ukpga_19960058_en.pdf
25.
A person shall not be guilty of an offence against this Act or any order made under this Act in respect of any act done for the purpose of preventing suffering by—
(a)
an injured or diseased deer; or
(b)
(b)
by any deer calf, fawn or kid deprived, or about to be deprived, of its mother.
England and Wales
Deer Act 1991, offences relating to deer, section 6 - general exceptions to certain provisions of this Act, Para (2) A person shall not be guilty of an offence under section 2 or section 3 above by reason of any act done for the purpose of preventing the suffering of an injured or diseased deer.
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Nearly all of the Oilseed rape grown in this country is of the 00 variety, or double low, low in glucosinolates and Eurucic acid, the other varieties grown on a much smaller scale are known as HEAR (high Eurucic acid rape - grown solely for industrial purposes rather than human/animal consumption).
The ingestion of significant quantities of rape by larger mammals including roe is believed to occur when the animal is deprived of its more natural food source such as during sustained hard weather or when the animal has not been "educated" such as orphaned kids feeding on rape (although I will happily stand corrected on this). The "poisoning" occurs due to the metabolised sulphides, Sulphoxides and thyocyanates (cyanide) leading to a thyocyanote Psychosis and causes damage to cell membranes, the liver and blood - on gralloching the animals rumen will often be a horrible green colour. As a trained hunter should know this is a very specific condition and is easily recognisable when encountered (last year during the hard weather we had several instances), the animal is clearly in distress and therefore can legally be culled regardless of season.
The question in the bank of Level 1 questions specifically asks what a trained hunter should do if encountering the situation. The correct answer as confirmed by several assessors recently is to cull the animal and dispose of the carcass. This question came up on the last course we ran and again the correct answer was confirmed as cull and dispose. We always suggest to our candidates that if they would not eat the carcass themselves then the correct procedure is not to put it in the food chain (although some obvious ambiguity can occur here as well as some incorrect assumptions such as TB positive carcasses - one of which I shot 2 weeks ago.)
HME.
Welcome to Corinium Rifle Range
The ingestion of significant quantities of rape by larger mammals including roe is believed to occur when the animal is deprived of its more natural food source such as during sustained hard weather or when the animal has not been "educated" such as orphaned kids feeding on rape (although I will happily stand corrected on this). The "poisoning" occurs due to the metabolised sulphides, Sulphoxides and thyocyanates (cyanide) leading to a thyocyanote Psychosis and causes damage to cell membranes, the liver and blood - on gralloching the animals rumen will often be a horrible green colour. As a trained hunter should know this is a very specific condition and is easily recognisable when encountered (last year during the hard weather we had several instances), the animal is clearly in distress and therefore can legally be culled regardless of season.
The question in the bank of Level 1 questions specifically asks what a trained hunter should do if encountering the situation. The correct answer as confirmed by several assessors recently is to cull the animal and dispose of the carcass. This question came up on the last course we ran and again the correct answer was confirmed as cull and dispose. We always suggest to our candidates that if they would not eat the carcass themselves then the correct procedure is not to put it in the food chain (although some obvious ambiguity can occur here as well as some incorrect assumptions such as TB positive carcasses - one of which I shot 2 weeks ago.)
HME.
Welcome to Corinium Rifle Range
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news of the world
Well-Known Member
HME,
if left do they recover from rape poisoning?
regards
Now
if left do they recover from rape poisoning?
regards
Now
MJ
It's not a north/south thing at all. The BASC are categorically wrong. 20 years ago I was in the grain trade including buying and selling 100,000 tonnes of OSR per annum.A tiny proportion of the rape grown in this country over the last 20 years has been anything other than double low varieties (00). Single low or HEAR (High Euricic Acid Rape) is confined to specialist contracts for industrial usage only with very few growers bothering due to lower yields, cross pollination and volunteer problems. For 5 years I worked with the only company who offered the growing contract and the available tonnage was tiny. Sorry, but the BASC need to sort out their info.
NOW
None that I'm aware of, we've never left one to find out! Although with the neurological and other damage done I would have thought it highly unlikely.
HME
It's not a north/south thing at all. The BASC are categorically wrong. 20 years ago I was in the grain trade including buying and selling 100,000 tonnes of OSR per annum.A tiny proportion of the rape grown in this country over the last 20 years has been anything other than double low varieties (00). Single low or HEAR (High Euricic Acid Rape) is confined to specialist contracts for industrial usage only with very few growers bothering due to lower yields, cross pollination and volunteer problems. For 5 years I worked with the only company who offered the growing contract and the available tonnage was tiny. Sorry, but the BASC need to sort out their info.
NOW
None that I'm aware of, we've never left one to find out! Although with the neurological and other damage done I would have thought it highly unlikely.
HME
keith@honda
Well-Known Member
ok but does it affect other species of deer or animals such as rabbits
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Would I be right in thinking that if as a DSC1 trained hunter you assessed an out of season deer needed to be culled for humane reasons as described in the Deer Acts your expertise would be deemed to be superior to that of an unqualified Police Constable, or of a charity worker such as an RSPCA representative?
Judging by the lack of replies to that last question it would appear there are no high court judges on the site!
It is unfortunate that the Level 1 trained hunter status can be gained by individuals who have never stalked, shot or even seen a deer in the wild let alone identified the need to cull what may be a completely healthy animal.
Sadly the situation you have outlined which I am sure must happen on countless occasions nationally and goes unreported/un-challenged can really only be decided in a court of law (a bit like the estate rifle rule) unless common sense has prevailed when the experience of the stalker in question 'should' be taken into account - I'd be happy to put it to a judge that I knew what I was doing from the deers welfare point of view backed up by the deer act but then I do it for a living which could be very different from the average recreational stalkers standpoint.
Thankfully few recreational stalkers will ever be faced with the situation where they have to take an out of season animal (other than perhaps an orphaned fawn) so hopefully we shouldn't see too many stalkers banged up for shooting an injured deer.
Keith, I've seen and shot a few obviously orphaned fallow fawns with scours indicating some digestive issues from over grazing a lush crop but generally fallow are grazers anyway so are likely to eat more varied bulk forage than roe. Regards rabbits, I think if you look around the edges of rape fields where rabbits are present will give you some idea, loads of damage and no stoned rabbits!
Incidentally, I read somewhere that roe deer when confined to a parkland type scenario with little browsing lasted less than a month when forced to graze like fallow although I have no idea if this was fact or otherwise.
HME
It is unfortunate that the Level 1 trained hunter status can be gained by individuals who have never stalked, shot or even seen a deer in the wild let alone identified the need to cull what may be a completely healthy animal.
Sadly the situation you have outlined which I am sure must happen on countless occasions nationally and goes unreported/un-challenged can really only be decided in a court of law (a bit like the estate rifle rule) unless common sense has prevailed when the experience of the stalker in question 'should' be taken into account - I'd be happy to put it to a judge that I knew what I was doing from the deers welfare point of view backed up by the deer act but then I do it for a living which could be very different from the average recreational stalkers standpoint.
Thankfully few recreational stalkers will ever be faced with the situation where they have to take an out of season animal (other than perhaps an orphaned fawn) so hopefully we shouldn't see too many stalkers banged up for shooting an injured deer.
Keith, I've seen and shot a few obviously orphaned fallow fawns with scours indicating some digestive issues from over grazing a lush crop but generally fallow are grazers anyway so are likely to eat more varied bulk forage than roe. Regards rabbits, I think if you look around the edges of rape fields where rabbits are present will give you some idea, loads of damage and no stoned rabbits!
Incidentally, I read somewhere that roe deer when confined to a parkland type scenario with little browsing lasted less than a month when forced to graze like fallow although I have no idea if this was fact or otherwise.
HME
Ignoring firearms aspects, I'd say that it would be unlikely for any charges to be brought over destruction on humane grounds. I'll try and seek Police permission for domestic animals, sometimes just a phone call to say, "I'm a vet and it needs putting down".
Keith, sheep certainly get it, as do most ruminants
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