Why shoot the foxes?

[AlexD]

It is common sense to shoot fox , crows and other species that preys on our game.

You gave various archaic examples of activities, all of which are now illegal. Then jump to foxes, that are unrelated to that history.

There is no debate that if you have a farm producing birds, you need to remove the foxes and rats.

For all other situations, have you seen the memo? The clue is in the title of the National Gamekeepers' Organisation's journal. It is called "KEEPING the Balance".

 

[Robinson]

The clue is in the title of the National Gamekeepers' Organisation's journal. It is called "KEEPING the Balance".

Splendid advice. I do so by shooting fox and crows. When and where it's legal.

 

[Mr Tree]

As a farmer, I am responsible for the wild life on this farm. I want to see a rich & biodiverse range of creatures, flora & fauna on this place. I did this by improving habitat, planting many hedges & trees, dug ponds, created wildlife strips, wild bird cover. Planted cocksfoot grass on the hedge banks, judicious use of a hedge cutter. The plan worked, I now have a created a haven, hare numbers up, bird numbers up but unfortunately increased levels of predation. II didn't do all this just to feed foxes crows & magpies, so I shoot them. The three legged stool of conservation, provide somewhere good for wildlife to breed or nest. Make sure there is a good supply of food for them to rear their offspring, control their predators. If you fail on one of these aspects, the stool falls over. It may be a slightly artificial situation, but for me personally I love to see & hear the results. Its my farm, my management, my rules.
And isn't that what farming is all about, imposing your will on Mother Nature?

 

[AlexD]

Splendid advice. I do so by shooting fox and crows. When and where it's legal.

The word balance in the dictionary I use suggests a reasonable weight on both sides, not "a balance scale" with one pan empty.

Can you report the results for the land you manage? What the damage is, what the effect of removing X foxes has been, and how you relate the change with that benefit? Anyone saying they he killed 30 this year, 30 last year, itself shows their method is not working.

Here we are not overrun with foxes, have a steady and moderate population, not needing to kill any. The wildlife is rich and diverse. That is a balance.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

That's quite a sweeping presumption Tim.
You don't know these shepherds but choose to judge them from afar, hmm.

Funnily enough I have had the very same conversation. I was basically told that my personal experience as a farmer was wrong, my knowledge of what happened with my livestock and predation inaccurate. That it was my poor husbandry that was the problem. Very insulting to myself and many others who farm. There are many issues that affect livestock survival. Some of those affect more than just livestock. I have seen the difference between places where foxes are controlled and where they are not. Note control, not wiping them out. Just keeping the numbers in check. I will take what I have seen rather than someone else’s unbending opinion thanks.

 

[VSS]

That's quite a sweeping presumption Tim.
You don't know these shepherds but choose to judge them from afar, hmm.

No, it's not a presumption. It's a conclusion based on many years experience.
Reducing lamb mortality is something I've devoted my life to. It has become my specialist subject. I've researched it, experimented, written about it, spoken at conferences, taught at agricultural colleges on the subject and run residential courses. And managed my own farm alongside all this.
For a significant proportion of my life I was a contract lambing "trouble shooter" (not to be confused with fox shooter). For five months every year (early December to early May) I did nothing but lambing, from lowland early lambing flocks in the South East to some of the highest mountain flocks in Wales, and every conceivable permutation in between. Always with the sole aim of reducing lamb mortality, and always successful. Not once did that involve culling foxes. Even on the farms that believed they had a fox problem (and there were many), it was always possible to determine why they had lambs that were vulnerable to predation and therefore deal with the problem at source. Shooting foxes is simply shutting the stable door after the horse has well and truly bolted.
If I could I would, with all good will, offer the same service to your shepherd friends, and make a real lasting difference, but unfortunately my health no longer permits it.

So, by all means cull foxes in areas of high population to protect ground nesting birds etc, or poultry, or game birds, or just because you enjoy shooting foxes, but don't kid yourself (or your shepherd friends) that shooting foxes will result in any improvement in the overall output of a sheep flock, because it won't. It will reduce the number of non-viable lambs eaten by foxes, but it will not reduce the number of non-viable lambs.

 

[Mr Tree]

An interesting synopsis VSS, & one that I would agree with, until my neighbour had 17 lambs killed by a single fox in his small flock of sheep. I shot it, the problem was resolved. He still has a few foxes around, & hasn't had one lamb killed since. I do wonder about the origin of problem foxes, they seem to hunt during daytime, dont appear to have any fear of humans, run for the shelter of my garden, where they get munched by my dog. I strongly suspect that released town foxes may be the answer, they are incapable of hunting wild prey?

 

[Smellydog]

but it will not reduce the number of non-viable lambs.

Never said or implied it would my friend but please dont judge people you have not met.
Or land you have not stood on.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

No, it's not a presumption. It's a conclusion based on many years experience.
Reducing lamb mortality is something I've devoted my life to. It has become my specialist subject. I've researched it, experimented, written about it, spoken at conferences and taught at agricultural colleges on the subject. And managed my own farm alongside all this.
For a significant proportion of my life I was a contract lambing "trouble shooter" (not to be confused with fox shooter). For five months every year (early December to early May) I did nothing but lambing, from lowland early lambing flocks in the South East to some of the highest mountain flocks in Wales, and every conceivable permutation in between. Always with the sole aim of reducing lamb mortality, and always successful. Not once did that involve culling foxes. Even on the farms that believed they had a fox problem (and there were many), it was always possible to determine why they had lambs that were vulnerable to predation and therefore deal with the problem at source. Shooting foxes is simply shutting the stable door after the horse has well and truly bolted.
If I could I would, with all good will, offer the same service to your shepherd friends, and make a real lasting difference, but unfortunately my health no longer permits it.

So, by all means cull foxes in areas of high population to protect ground nesting birds etc, or poultry, or game birds, or just because you enjoy shooting foxes, but don't kid yourself (or your shepherd friends) that shooting foxes will result in any improvement in the overall output of a sheep flock, because it won't. It will reduce the number of non-viable lambs eaten by foxes, but it will not reduce the number of non-viable lambs.

I won’t go back over the same ground as previously discussed. The fact you made your living based on your view. I made mine (past tense) from farming as many of my friends still do. I have seen improvement from shooting foxes. I have seen an increase in lambs getting to market. With no other change in management on farm than fox control.
Did you go to a farm and change just one thing and then wait till the end of the year to see what the results were? Or did you go through and suggest then implement more than one in any one lambing season?
I don’t dismiss that you’re well known and respected in your field (no pun intended) but I do believe that you are dismissive of any opinion other than the “poor husbandry is the problem”.

 

[AlexD]

I strongly suspect that released town foxes may be the answer, they are incapable of hunting wild prey?

You may have hit the nail on the head.

A mile from us, there is a small chicken farm with acre or two of free range chickens, and right across the road is a pheasant rearer. The Scottish RSPCA van comes each week to dump the urban foxes right outside their door, to cause havoc. Caught in the act.

Those urban foxes never seem to appear on the arable land, but stay near the chicken farm, where he and his neighbour shoot absurd numbers of foxes. Sometimes 50 a month.

 

[BenBhoy]

Sometimes 50 a month.

I'd be invoicing RSPCA for my ammo costs!!

 

[Smellydog]

Ive just made a monumental fluk up at work because of this thread now shut up

 

[landkeeper]

Lamb killing problem foxes exist not every fox is a lamb killer as opposed to one that just picks up the odd dead lamb
1, we were lambing adult mule ewes in April in a well fenced 20+acre field checked last thing at night and at daybreak and marked with a spray can
Ewes that had lambed were moved out of the lambing field every morning all was going fine for a week or so then the problems started ,ewes that had a pair the evening before were missing a lamb come morning no dead lambs found .I went round the field and snared any runs I could find the next morning I'd caught a large dog fox no lamb went 'missing' after that coincidence ?I don't think so .
2 ,friends were lambing scanned yearlings outside late April lots of problems ,lambs with chewed ears noses and lots of ewes with no lamb when there should have been one
Long story short I shot over 35 foxes off the 700 acre farm in 2 weeks or so still the problem continued until one evening I shot a big old range dog fox coming out of a small spinny he'd stumps for teeth
Further investigation in the spinny revealed an empty earth and dozens and I'm not eggagerating of dead lambs not one was eaten partially eaten again no.lambs missing after that fox was dealt with
3, month old pair of Suffolk pedigree ram lambs with their ewe in a small paddock perfectly fine at dusk it snowed during the night maybe 3 hrs before daybreak morning revealed tracks of two foxes lots of blood and a missing lamb now yes it could have died during the night but given the fact it was such a small time frame I don't think so
Yes you can improve lamb viability and mothering instinct colostrum production and all those other things but to make statements along the lines of its the shepherd not the fox that's to blame is disingenuous to a lot of people .
A fresh lamb is an easy target to a adult fox that's learnt the trick

 

[TURNBOLT]

What people don't realise that decades ago foxs and badgers were heavily controlled by the use of snares. Gamekeepers were common and when fox pelts were worth good money vast numbers were taken.
In RB book I think he says in Norfolk a fox was hung on a gate. Most of the locals had never seen a fox.! They were so rare.
When I first moved to Bristol the place was alive with foxs then mange took hold and there was the pathetic sight of badly infected dying foxs.
Not so much mange now but still shoot a few. In my area it's impossible to get on anywhere near 50% of the land so always a residual reservoir of foxs esp close to built up areas. On a farm close to a built up area I shoot in excess of 50 foxs a year. Recently 8 in a few weeks of 5 adjacent fields. All adults and clued up so I don't think dumped.
I find foxing a very challenging exercise and feel that I am giving the remaining wildlife a bit of a chance.
D

Well said.The reason the countryside has been such a wonderful place and still is in many places is because of gamekeepers.I have been fortunate enough to see a plethora of birds and small animals through the 1950s 60s 70s and 80s even ,all because of proper conservation ,controlling predators.Now all this re wilding crap Is spoiling (ruining) everything.In Scotland last month I asked “where are the red squirrels “ only to be told “there aren’t many now” no there aren’t but I saw Pine Martins in the daylight.Pray tell me why these so called “experts get most thing’s wrong.

 

[VSS]

An interesting synopsis VSS, & one that I would agree with, until my neighbour had 17 lambs killed by a single fox in his small flock of sheep. I shot it, the problem was resolved. He still has a few foxes around, & hasn't had one lamb killed since.

That's the kind of challenge I relish!

Often, in situations where there's a sudden spike in fox predation, analysing the data reveals that in that particular year the flock experienced a higher than normal proportion of low birthweight lambs.
Obviously not all farmers record that data, but to be honest if they don't measure it they can't mend it, and any attempt to do so is merely ****ing in the wind.
Low birthweights might be caused by a numbed of things. For example, poor ewe nutrition, or disease (eg, toxoplasmosis. Toxo is very common, and the majority of sheep will become infected with it at some point in their lives. Where there's a low level persistent infection in flock it'll often pass unnoticed, but when a new infection occurs in a previously naive flock the effects in that year can be devastating. If infected in early pregnancy, ewes will repeat to the ram and either lamb very late or be barren. When infection occurs in mid pregnancy, ewes will abort. But when it occurs in late pregnancy ewes will produce live lambs with low birth weights and low vigour. Perfect fox food! In subsequent years, ewes are immune, so the problem appears to have gone away, and predation drops accordingly. Vaccinating a flock against toxo is pretty much guaranteed to reduce the number of lambs predated).
You mention that it is a small flock, and they have their own set of problems. Age structure is one example: In smallholders flocks it is quite common for older ewes not to have been culled when they should have been, for "sentimental reasons", so insufficient young sheep are retained each year to replace them, and the age profile of the flock advances year on year. It is well documented that there comes a point in a ewe's life when her ability to rear a lamb and produce quality colostrum declines sharply, again resulting in potential "fox bait" lambs. When an unnaturally high proportion of the flock reaches that age category all at the same time you'll see a correspondingly high level of lamb mortality in that particular year, leading to higher than normal predation.

So, there's just a few examples of what might have caused the situation you witnessed, all of which are solved without shooting any foxes. You shot the fox after the event, so didn't prevent the 17 deaths. Being aware of, and adressing issues such as those I've outlined above (or others. These are just examples) would have done.

Never said or implied it would my friend but please dont judge people you have not met.
Or land you have not stood on.

Saving him the cost of a call-out fee

 

[landkeeper]

That's the kind of challenge I relish!

Often, in situations where there's a sudden spike in fox predation, analysing the data reveals that in that particular year the flock experienced a higher than normal proportion of low birthweight lambs.
Obviously not all farmers record that data, but to be honest if they don't measure it they can't mend it, and any attempt to do so is merely ****ing in the wind.
Low birthweights might be caused by a numbed of things. For example, poor ewe nutrition, or disease (eg, toxoplasmosis. Toxo is very common, and the majority of sheep will become infected with it at some point in their lives. Where there's a low level persistent infection in flock it'll often pass unnoticed, but when a new infection occurs in a previously naive flock the effects in that year can be devastating. If infected in early pregnancy, ewes will repeat to the ram and either lamb very late or be barren. When infection occurs in mid pregnancy, ewes will abort. But when it occurs in late pregnancy ewes will produce live lambs with low birth weights and low vigour. Perfect fox food! In subsequent years, ewes are immune, so the problem appears to have gone away, and predation drops accordingly. Vaccinating a flock against toxo is pretty much guaranteed to reduce the number of lambs predated).
You mention that it is a small flock, and they have their own set of problems. Age structure is one example: In smallholders flocks it is quite common for older ewes not to have been culled when they should have been, for "sentimental reasons", so insufficient young sheep are retained each year to replace them, and the age profile of the flock advances year on year. It is well documented that there comes a point in a ewe's life when her ability to rear a lamb and produce quality colostrum declines sharply, again resulting in potential "fox bait" lambs. When an unnaturally high proportion of the flock reaches that age category all at the same time you'll see a correspondingly high level of lamb mortality in that particular year, leading to higher than normal predation.

So, there's just a few examples of what might have caused the situation you witnessed, all of which are solved without shooting any foxes. You shot the fox after the event, so didn't prevent the 17 deaths. Being aware of, and adressing issues such as those I've outlined above (or others. These are just examples) would have done.



Saving him the cost of a call-out fee

Do.you really think Mr fox goes around checking the weight of newborn.lambs before he decides if they are fox bait or not lol
Yes live weight and or lethargy might be a contributing factor in statistics of 'missing'lambs but 1st and foremost if the particular fox hadn't developed the penchant for lamb killing then the lambs would still be there plenty of lower birth weight lambs survive and prosper after all birth weight vary as much from breed to breed as it does due to nutrition regime as well as ewe condition

 

[finnbear270]

Where did that video / thermal recording or maybe a lamping phone vid go, that was on here somewhere,? It was a close up of a fox trying to move in on a Ewe with a lamb.

 

[Robinson]

Can you report the results for the land you manage? What the damage is, what the effect of removing X foxes has been, and how you relate the change with that benefit? Anyone saying they he killed 30 this year, 30 last year, itself shows their method is not working.

Oh, yes I can report. Now, I have to state that I'm not a very clever fox hunter, so that this year I have not shot any, and last year only one. But around here foxes next to farmers and their harvesting machines, are the biggest predators on roe deers. The killing of roe deer kids by farmers and their machines, have gone down a lot by implementing measures to avoid it. Around here we have volunteer groups with drones and heat seeking kameras that find the roe kids and move them. It's very popular , me living in an agricultural area can see this drones flying out on the fields now in June, the danger month for roe kids. This doesn't cost the farmer anything, all he has to do is make a phone call and get an appointment before harvesting. And he gladly do so, because a roe kid in bits in his cow fodder can kill his entire livestock if he is really unlucky. So roe kids killed by farmers has gone noticeably down in later years. This put the fox at the top of the food chain when it comes to roe kids. So if I can shoot one fox in March, I might save the life of several roe kids in June.
When it comes to crows on the other hand, I am a lot more clever. I shoot quite a few. That is not so much for selfish reasons, since they dont eat what I want to hunt. But around here birds like the Curlew and Lapwing are really threatened and the numbers have gone drastically down later years. Ornitologs are not sure why, they certainly dont blame the crows, but tend to suggest that modern farming might have an impact here. I'm not a scientist, but there is no doubt that crows feed their own babies with chicks of both the Curlew and Lapwing. And others. What I can see and report, is that in an approximately 200 meters area around our family cabin, Curlew and Lapwing are plentiful, but crows aren't. We asked two farmers for permission to cut down some trees that the crows used as vantage point to scan the fields. It helped. If a crow settles on a field or a stone fence innside 200 meters , and stay there for more than 30 seconds, we ( me and my brother in law) usually manage to nail them. We dont have to shoot more than 3-4 crows during the legal months in the spring, and they will avoid the area. Crows are smart. With balance, I mean balance. I dont want to exterminate either foxes or crows, but simply want to give a helping hand so that more roe kids and chicks of the Curlew and Lapwing can reach puberty...

 

[VSS]

Do.you really think Mr fox goes around checking the weight of newborn.lambs before he decides if they are fox bait or not lol
Yes live weight and or lethargy might be a contributing factor in statistics of 'missing'lambs but 1st and foremost if the particular fox hadn't developed the penchant for lamb killing then the lambs would still be there plenty of lower birth weight lambs survive and prosper after all birth weight vary as much from breed to breed as it does due to nutrition regime as well as ewe condition

The variation in birthweight between breeds is not really a significant factor. A lamb which is of low birthweight for its breed is at greater risk, despite the fact that it could potentially be heavier than a normal birthweight lamb of a smaller breed.

 

[landkeeper]

The variation in birthweight between breeds is not really a significant factor. A lamb which is of low birthweight for its breed is at greater risk, despite the fact that it could potentially be heavier than a normal birthweight lamb of a smaller breed.

Again your giving credence to the scenario that the fox knows these things a 3.5kg lamb is the same to a fox no matter if its a small texel x twin or a large blackie lamb