Len the dog
Well-Known Member
If you were shooting walked up partridges would you take your 10 bore wildfowler? No, so why use the same gun that you would on a high bird day?
Side by Sides - Worth Buying?
- Thread starter Cranborne
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Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Shurely not.
The growth in participation in shotgun shooting is down to the increase in clay shooting.
But shurely someone with his finger on the pulse like you do knows this already?
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
No, because I have better options.
But if a 10 bore was all I had, that’s what I’d carry.
Quite a lot of people only have the one gun, an OU is more versatile than a light box action SBS.
I’m still looking for a Dixon round action, I’m willing to compromise my beliefs for personal satisfaction.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Have a chat with Graham Mackinlay in Dumbarton. He specialises in Scottish guns and most of his good stuff never even makes it onto his website. Let him know what you are looking for.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I think there's a truth in that but also there's the fact that most people seem to come into shooting via clay pigeon shooting and so learn on an O/U gun. Whereas when I was a kid clay pigeon shooting except specialised trap and skeet was seen, in my circles I grew up in, almost as "poor man's shooting" for those that didn't have access to game shooting, wildfowling or pigeon shooting. Now of course it has evolved into a sport all of its own and those that do it in many many cases wouldn't even want to shoot live quarry even if cost free. So the better gun for that is the O/U and as the prejudice against it has fallen away (even on a formal driven day) so the demand for a S/B/S has fallen. I think that they are likely to suffer the same fate as the revolver of old. Some have and keep, some will buy and try for nostalgia but for the most part other than the "rare" the "interesting" and the "desirable" the rest have no value. The English 2 1/2" and the Spanish 70mm boxlock non-ejector is obsolete and pretty much worthless. Indeed they now are bundled three or four together in auction and still struggle to make more than £10 or so.
Len the dog
Well-Known Member
That is all very dependent upon what sort of shooting you do. For me, a light and fast handling side by side SLE covers nearly everything I do. I occasionally have a go at sporting clays with my son where I use a sporter O/U, but if I had to choose one gun it would be the side by side.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
The side by side ejector has one massive advantage over any equivalent O/U. It has better gape for quick reloading after one, or two shots have been fired. Where birds are being flushed to a gun or coming into to decoys the ability to make three or four shots quickly makes a huge difference between getting a shot away at a fresh bird. In truth even then an easy-opener ejector or self-opener ejector is even better. Yet maybe only three or four times when I have shot two hundred bird or near two hundred bird days have I ever needed that fast reload. And actually a pair of guns and a loader would have been better still even if that pair were non-ejectors.
Where clays are shot, from a stand, on the shooter's call, and in singles or pairs speed of reloading is irrelevant and indeed most could shoot clays with a non-ejector O/U. As did the Russian 1960s Olympic Skeet Teams, apparently? And of course weigh wise a S/B/S is usually less weight to carry than an O/U but if on a clay ground that supposed benefit is actually over a one hundred bird sporting clays shoot a disbenefit. Less so now with the 28 gram CPSA "limit" but in the days of 1 1/8 ounce load use a heavy O/U was the better choice of gun for, say, English Skeet requiring multiple sets of three or four or five rounds of twenty-five birds to determine the High Gun on the day.
Where clays are shot, from a stand, on the shooter's call, and in singles or pairs speed of reloading is irrelevant and indeed most could shoot clays with a non-ejector O/U. As did the Russian 1960s Olympic Skeet Teams, apparently? And of course weigh wise a S/B/S is usually less weight to carry than an O/U but if on a clay ground that supposed benefit is actually over a one hundred bird sporting clays shoot a disbenefit. Less so now with the 28 gram CPSA "limit" but in the days of 1 1/8 ounce load use a heavy O/U was the better choice of gun for, say, English Skeet requiring multiple sets of three or four or five rounds of twenty-five birds to determine the High Gun on the day.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
The idea of one gun for everything is very desirable.
A 28 or 30” 12 bore chambered for 2 3/4” cartridge weighing somewhere between 6 1/2 to 7 1/2lbs will pretty much cover 95% of what most of the services to which a shotgun is put to. Indeed I would widen that to include 16 and 20 bores and a 3” chamber since many modern guns are so chambered. 24 grams of shot for clays, moving up to 28, 30 or 32grams in No 6 lead or No 4 steel will take care of most things.
And I wouldn’t overlook 2 1/2” chambers either.
12 bores reign supreme and there is a vast range of ammo available at all price points everywhere. 20bores are pretty good in availability. 16, 28 and 410’s you need to think ahead, order in and are 10 to 25% more expensive to run than a 12. Non toxic ammo availability follows suit. But I have 2 1/2” 16 bore steel cartridges in my gun cupboard.
Gun fit is all important. If a gun doesn’t fit you will struggle to shoot well and instinctively with it. On clays and targets with a known flight path a good shot can correct for poor fit. When it comes to instinctive snap shooting gun fit is key.
A well fitting gun that you like talks to you and just feels right. But a gun that feels right in the shop may not suit when fired in anger. A good gun is just smooth, a lesser gun vibrates and kicks.
As for little things like how barrels are stacked or laid side by side or just a single barrel, and single trigger or double trigger are much less important. I have seen superb shots using all types of guns. Equally I have seen very poor shots use all types of guns.
Personally I like a fast handling pointy gun. But then I tend to snap shoot and can hit those birds where you get a momentary shot between the trees or that glimpse of a widgeon under the moon. But than long crossing phaesant where you have watched for an age - forget it.
I think the only real answer is either to have many different guns of all shapes and sizes and spend all your time testing them, but you only have fleeting relationships
Or just find a gun that you really like - and it’s very personal - and forge a long term close marriage with it.
And ignore the noise that everybody else makes.
I know one gentleman who uses an old greener GP 12bore. It’s an unusual choice. Its only a single shot. But everytime it goes bang, a bird falls out of the sky. Others will shoot 2 or 3 times as many cartridges, but the end result is usually less in the bag.
A 28 or 30” 12 bore chambered for 2 3/4” cartridge weighing somewhere between 6 1/2 to 7 1/2lbs will pretty much cover 95% of what most of the services to which a shotgun is put to. Indeed I would widen that to include 16 and 20 bores and a 3” chamber since many modern guns are so chambered. 24 grams of shot for clays, moving up to 28, 30 or 32grams in No 6 lead or No 4 steel will take care of most things.
And I wouldn’t overlook 2 1/2” chambers either.
12 bores reign supreme and there is a vast range of ammo available at all price points everywhere. 20bores are pretty good in availability. 16, 28 and 410’s you need to think ahead, order in and are 10 to 25% more expensive to run than a 12. Non toxic ammo availability follows suit. But I have 2 1/2” 16 bore steel cartridges in my gun cupboard.
Gun fit is all important. If a gun doesn’t fit you will struggle to shoot well and instinctively with it. On clays and targets with a known flight path a good shot can correct for poor fit. When it comes to instinctive snap shooting gun fit is key.
A well fitting gun that you like talks to you and just feels right. But a gun that feels right in the shop may not suit when fired in anger. A good gun is just smooth, a lesser gun vibrates and kicks.
As for little things like how barrels are stacked or laid side by side or just a single barrel, and single trigger or double trigger are much less important. I have seen superb shots using all types of guns. Equally I have seen very poor shots use all types of guns.
Personally I like a fast handling pointy gun. But then I tend to snap shoot and can hit those birds where you get a momentary shot between the trees or that glimpse of a widgeon under the moon. But than long crossing phaesant where you have watched for an age - forget it.
I think the only real answer is either to have many different guns of all shapes and sizes and spend all your time testing them, but you only have fleeting relationships
Or just find a gun that you really like - and it’s very personal - and forge a long term close marriage with it.
And ignore the noise that everybody else makes.
I know one gentleman who uses an old greener GP 12bore. It’s an unusual choice. Its only a single shot. But everytime it goes bang, a bird falls out of the sky. Others will shoot 2 or 3 times as many cartridges, but the end result is usually less in the bag.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I think that’s absolutely right, when I started shotgun shooting, live game is all I shot, now it’s switched 180 degrees, most people are shooting clays first, then progressing to game, because clays are accessible to everyone and game shooting is expensive.
I’ve changed too, I’m older and I shoot a lot more clays.
If most of your shooting is traditional game, you’re absolutely bang on with your gun choice.
Move the posts to predominantly clay shooting and the SBS falters and falls short.
I use both, I love both but they for sure are not the same tool.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Jesus H Christ in a handcart, do you think I’m made of money?Have a chat with Graham Mackinlay in Dumbarton. He specialises in Scottish guns and most of his good stuff never even makes it onto his website. Let him know what you are looking for.
That’s at least one and mostly two, zeros above my pay grade.
I’ll just keep talking quality old SBS’s down for another few decade or two and it shall be mine!
Thanks for the advice.
They are really nice guns….
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
You did say Dickson round action!
they ain’t cheap brother
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I know, but I can dream…..I guy I know “ found “ a nice H+H in an attic while doing a bit of plumbing, he got a straight swop..You did say Dickson round action!
I’m still dreaming.
Someday….maybe….
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
However he does have many nice guns at much more affordable prices.
lochty
Well-Known Member
My H&H came from Graham. He has a good selection of stuff, I'd looked for a sleeved gun (like mine) which was surprisingly affordable.Have a chat with Graham Mackinlay in Dumbarton. He specialises in Scottish guns and most of his good stuff never even makes it onto his website. Let him know what you are looking for.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Nowt wrong with a sleeved gun if they are done well. You have a gun that should have plenty of life, able to take modern cartridges and all without breaking the bank. But it depends on the sleeving. I have handled some - look very nice, but handling of a fence post, whereas others you would never now they have been sleeved.
Some turn their noses up at sleeving, but its really no different to monoblock barrels used by just about every over and under.
If you find a sleeved gun, it fits well and its been done properly then take a serious look.
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And is a lot more comfortable to carry on the arm, the Browning type is positively unpleasant.
It’s alas true that Glock-itis has largely replaced the revolver in the USE and given us a generation of shooters who have never experienced a decent trigger.
However debating SxS v O/U does at least exclude the semi auto/pump from consideration, they remain rare for clay shooting.
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Hmmm. The Glock trigger is actually ok after the first round if you release the trigger in a controlled way until you feel it click - much lighter pull but lots of muscle memory required….
My Reilly heavily engraved No2 sidelock ejector has quite thick barrels and is chambered for 2/12" cartridges. The chokes are imp and 1/4 and I use 21gr cartridges. If I use it on driven or walked up birds it kills them nicely out or up to 40yds high. Beyond that I don't usually take the shot and have a mental and practical guide to assess that distance. I have had and used many 0/U guns but the SbS still gives me better results, average 3 out of 5 hits on birds.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
40 yards is the normally accepted range of a shotgun for clean reliable kills. Always has been and with modern steel still is. It is the equivalent of 200 with a stalking rifle.My Reilly heavily engraved No2 sidelock ejector has quite thick barrels and is chambered for 2/12" cartridges. The chokes are imp and 1/4 and I use 21gr cartridges. If I use it on driven or walked up birds it kills them nicely out or up to 40yds high. Beyond that I don't usually take the shot and have a mental and practical guide to assess that distance. I have had and used many 0/U guns but the SbS still gives me better results, average 3 out of 5 hits on birds.
There are some who can consistently kill live birds a bit further - 50 perhaps 60 at a push, but we are now talking heavier loads and guns and good shots. What is not discussed are the number of pricked birds that are never recovered.
There are also those who break clays at even greater ranges - I have seen videos claiming over 100, but its not consistent and a clay is lot easier to kill than a bird.
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