Tail docking a spaniel?
- Thread starter Apthorpe
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John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
In your world yes I can agree as there are so many bullschitt breeds/bloodlines compromised by some greedy thoughtless breeders producing animals with congenital problems. Of course it goes on here also with some of the pedigree lines and the made up twangerdoodles and other rubbish. It sickens me to see so called designer dogs with teary droopy eyes, scrunched up noses, Chippendale legs, hollow backs and jaw problems proudly displayed by their masters that have NFI.
In my world of the Australian farm/bush community there are rarely any of the problems as seen by yourself in your surgery as those dogs simply don`t get a chance to breed, or simply are never in the equation of the hunting/working dogs world. Usually as any problems are dealt with very quickly as in fps quickly.
If the kids have a pet pup it will never be a twangersomething it will be a foxie or something useful. (rats in the hayshed)
Oh so many years ago I knew of and worked with ( in the field ) quite a few as yourself with proper working terriers and as you say there was perhaps a whimper then the bitch would lick the stump and all was forgotten.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Many thanks
Risk factors for tail injuries in dogs in Great Britain - PubMed
The aim of the current study was to quantify the risk of tail injury, to evaluate the extent to which tail docking reduces this risk, and to identify other major risk factors for tail injury in dogs in Great Britain. A nested case-control study was conducted during 2008 and 2009. Data were...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Long winded and done by it seems an anti docker.
Phil fox man
Well-Known Member
Hi.
Here's my take on the subject,get ready!.
It's not about animal welfare, mutilation or any other bollocks,it's plain and simple MONEY!.
Why would a vet cure a problem for £15 when he can have a revenue stream for the next 10 or so years.
Just like spot on wormers £10 a pop,2-3 ml, when I can buy 1000 ml bottle on percription for £80 for farm animals do the math,that bottle is worth £5000.
At least dick turpin wore a mask!
Next the genetic "way".
Line breeding for a specific trait can take a long time and produce other unwanted side effects,ok when your stock is going to slaughter every year.
History has taught us about line breeding ( master race)? And look how it turned out for the deep south American's breeding for better banjo players.
Any way that's my take on tail docking.
Phil
Here's my take on the subject,get ready!.
It's not about animal welfare, mutilation or any other bollocks,it's plain and simple MONEY!.
Why would a vet cure a problem for £15 when he can have a revenue stream for the next 10 or so years.
Just like spot on wormers £10 a pop,2-3 ml, when I can buy 1000 ml bottle on percription for £80 for farm animals do the math,that bottle is worth £5000.
At least dick turpin wore a mask!
Next the genetic "way".
Line breeding for a specific trait can take a long time and produce other unwanted side effects,ok when your stock is going to slaughter every year.
History has taught us about line breeding ( master race)? And look how it turned out for the deep south American's breeding for better banjo players.
Any way that's my take on tail docking.
Phil
Do they wag their tails "furiously" as they work the cover?
At the moment, yes. I'm not sure if there's any work going on re genetic resistance to fluke. Probably not, as it's only a major problem in some areas, not across the whole UK.
I think the whole climate change thing is likely to bring fluke more into the spotlight though, as there's no doubt the epidemiology is changing.
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You safeguard against that by maintaining a semen archive.
Thanks, I just asked in response to your fit for purpose point earlier regarding dog tails and a solution to make them viable. By that logic, are sheep a viable species if we have to treat them for liver fluke etc, albeit not "invasively"?
Humans have harnessed animals for a variety of purposes over the years, tail docking is just one method, as deemed necessary by those who work their dogs in certain conditions. I have personally had 3 litters docked by 3 different vets in the past, 2 GSP and 1 Springer, and whilst I respect Buchan's stance/viewpoint probably 3 or 4 out of the 19 pups made any kind of immediate noise when being docked and then quite happily settled into their carrying cage. None of them went on to have any psychological or physical issue emanating from the docking procedure. I have seen the 500/1 docking injury survey previously but then my alternative stats (albeit on a small sample) suggest a 100% no issue from docking result, and I would always want to dock my working dogs.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
One only has to look at the current crop of lunatics with modified bodies and piercings (humans) to know that a simple dock at a few days of age is nothing in comparison to those ****wits that split their own tongues etc. Yet the anti dockers ignore those procedures lol.
Valid points, and I'm pleased to continue the discussion along sensible lines.
In a word, no. A significant proportion of the domesticated commercial sheep breeds are not fit for purpose under current (changed) circumstances. Many of the processes and procedures that we previously used to keep them healthy are either no longer acceptable, no longer work, or are no longer available.
In many respects very similar to the situation in the dog world.
But progressive sheep breeders are actively seeking genetic solutions to the problems we face, and the benefits filter down through the wider industry.
To use your example of liver fluke, this was previously a seasonal problem in the wetter areas of the UK. Across the rest of country it wasn't economically significant. Now the situation is changing. Due to climate change, the problem is more widespread and it occurs throughout the year. Furthermore, the parasites are becoming resistant to the drugs designed to kill them, so treatment is becoming more difficult. So, it could be argued that, under current circumstances, sheep breeds that are susceptible to liver fluke are no longer fit for purpose in the UK.
However, whereas selectively breeding for physical traits (such as tail length) is easy, breeding for disease resistance is not so straightforward. And it's expensive. For example, collecting data for the parasite resistance project that I've been working with involved having a vet and a technician on the farm for a day, collecting faecal samples and blood samples from every lamb, carefully matched to each animal's individual identity. The faecal samples were analysed to determine the level of challenge and the bloods were analysed to determine the level of immune response. All this data was merged with the pedigree information and all other records relating to growth rates etc, and a BLUP analysis was run. This means that I now have EBVs relating to natural parasite resistance for every animal in the flock, and with each year of the project the predictions will become more accurate (particularly when you throw genomics into the mix). I use the information to make informed breeding decisions that will ultimately improve the health and welfare of my animals.
But it's complex and, as I mentioned, expensive.
In contrast, selecting for physical traits such as tail length, growth rate, mature size, etc etc, is straightforward and inexpensive. The characteristics are easy to measure, the data is simple to collect, the analysis is not so complex, and the results (in the form of changes to the conformation of successive generations) are easy to monitor. Basically, it's exactly the same principles of selective breeding that resulted in the various breeds of sheep (and dogs) that we see today, only we can now get faster results due to accurate predictions of the likely outcome of different matings. So, in a sense, I would consider breeding certain types of dogs to have shorter or more robust tails to be simply a continuation of the ongoing process of breed development and improvement to make those animals more fit for purpose in response to changing circumstances. Breeders who don't move forward eventually get left behind and fall by the wayside.
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jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
We have done far worse and inflicted years of pain and suffering to dogs/dog breeds via genetic breeding for desired traits than any tail docking will ever give done at the correct time.
I may well be wrong but I don't see vets pushing like mad for banning the breeding of breeds with serious skin conditions due to wrinkles/folds or dogs with serious breathing difficulties due to flat faces, heart conditions due to breeding for bigger "ie great dane"
All traits brought on by fashion in the show fraternity and leading to shorter lives taboot.
Could this be because of the many millions that are made treating these dogs and the pharmaceutical companies who make creams and other such products to treat these animals.
I may well be wrong but I don't see vets pushing like mad for banning the breeding of breeds with serious skin conditions due to wrinkles/folds or dogs with serious breathing difficulties due to flat faces, heart conditions due to breeding for bigger "ie great dane"
All traits brought on by fashion in the show fraternity and leading to shorter lives taboot.
Could this be because of the many millions that are made treating these dogs and the pharmaceutical companies who make creams and other such products to treat these animals.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
One only has to compare the old with the new, German Shepherds V old time dogs, English Bull terriers V modern , blah blah blah.
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
Oh the list is extensive, but it's perfectly acceptable.
Cambridge University have actually done studies that found breeds unable to properly regulate body temperature at surprisingly low temperature due to breathing issues.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Yep its very wrong.
And yet, if you had a bitch you wanted to breed from, would you be happy to mate it to any random dog of the breed?
I doubt it!
I think you'd be looking for a dog with excellent conformation, good hip score (if that's a thing in your breed) and freedom from congenital defects. You'd look for a dog with strengths to offset any weaknesses in the bitch - maybe a bit longer in the leg, or deeper in the chest, or whatever other characteristics you felt were important. And you'd look for a dog from good working bloodlines and probably consider its temperament too.
And when the pups were born you'd select the one to keep that you felt had best inherited the traits that you desired.
And with each successive generation you'd do the same, and hope for a little more improvement each time.
That, in a nutshell, is selective breeding. Yet you're strangely opposed to it.
tackb
Well-Known Member
I have read all this with interest and i propose a solution that should suit everyone !
Start your breeding program with a view to shorter tails somewhere in the future but i think we can all agree it’s going to take a while?
In the meantime continue docking without all the anti fuss , even if a short tailed spaniel breed is docked it won’t affect the genetics and eventually there will naturally be no need to dock anymore without all this arguing and fuss?
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
Oh we do. And get a lot of grief from the breeders of the dogs in turn.
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