Stags and fees

[wildfowler.250]

Thought I’d post this for interest as I think opinions will be mixed. I’ve had days on the hill where you pay a flat rate and you take whatever stag you’re given, be it a switch or an old royal.

I’ve also had estate days where you pay A as a flat rate and you pay B on top if it’s 10 points or more. Be it a couple of hundred quid supplement for a 10 point and £1-£2k for a 14-16 pointer,(they had some about).

Which would you say is the fairest from a guest perspective and also from an estate perspective? I’m all for culling off the worst stags but at the same time, I’d rather shoot a hind at half the price than full fat for a switch.

I can see the appeal in spending all day trying to pick out one particular switch from a hunting perspective. Just from a coin toss on a day rate, it’s maybe not the best value for money.

I have to say, where I’ve stalked in the past, the guide usually tries to let you take the best of the worst 3 - 4 and then try and mop up the poorest at another point.

Be interested to know your thoughts and experiences. I have to say, I’m becoming more of a frosty day on the hinds and a good hike kind of person but you can’t beat the hills when they’re roaring

 

[@theroedeerguy]

I’ve tended to prefer a day rate as it helps keep expectations in check on both sides, however as with most things in life, any issues tend to arise from a lack of clear communication and information.

From a stalkers point of view when taking guests out for a stag I was always aiming to hit that sweet spot of being able to provide a decent stalking experience covering ground and getting into a stag for them that had a decent bit of character to him.

 

[Heym SR20]

Thought I’d post this for interest as I think opinions will be mixed. I’ve had days on the hill where you pay a flat rate and you take whatever stag you’re given, be it a switch or an old royal.

I’ve also had estate days where you pay A as a flat rate and you pay B on top if it’s 10 points or more. Be it a couple of hundred quid supplement for a 10 point and £1-£2k for a 14-16 pointer,(they had some about).

Which would you say is the fairest from a guest perspective and also from an estate perspective? I’m all for culling off the worst stags but at the same time, I’d rather shoot a hind at half the price than full fat for a switch.

I can see the appeal in spending all day trying to pick out one particular switch from a hunting perspective. Just from a coin toss on a day rate, it’s maybe not the best value for money.

I have to say, where I’ve stalked in the past, the guide usually tries to let you take the best of the worst 3 - 4 and then try and mop up the poorest at another point.

Be interested to know your thoughts and experiences. I have to say, I’m becoming more of a frosty day on the hinds and a good hike kind of person but you can’t beat the hills when they’re roaring

From the estates perspective you are looking a return from the deer. A big old 14 point stag is many years old, and in many ways has taken the space / food where you could have three or four younger deer instead. If you think in terms of cattle, most beef cattle are killed at 18months, not 10 plus years for an old stag.

It has always been that bug prime heads are there to ensure good genetics and then its a privalege to whomever has earned the right to take it. That may be the estate owner, or an esteemed guest. It may be some body who has stalked for many years. Or it may be whoever is prepared to pay a good high trophy fee which goes back into defraying the costs of good deer management.

I think as long as its transparent then it doesn’t really matter. Personally I have only ever shot scruffy stags as a) it’s what I can afford, b) they are much easier to recover or c) I am stalking as a guest and its seems ti me rude to shoot the best stag, when there is a scruffy wee thing next to it.

When you are taking paid for stalking, you are really paying for the experience of being out on the hill, whether or not you shot something. I think the best is to take a few days over a week with a cottage so you have the flexibility to be successful. And it very much depends on the stalkers. Some are very good with clients, and fundamentally make the experience. Others are just rude and treat clients as if they are an embuggerance to be endured. Mind you knowing those who take out clients and have to deal with clients in other walks of life embuggerance is being polite.

Coming back to the matter in hand what is clear to me both from the UK perspective and in Africa, once animals are no longer valid then they are soon gone. Many of Scotlands new landowners/ managers don’t value deer - and they are very quickly shot out. By contrast when I started stalking in the mid 1990’s Scottish estates were valued on the basis of the number of good stags they produced each year, along with the general quality of shooting and number of salmon from the rivers.

Visiting sportsmen would spend plenty of money booking the lodge, with cook, housekeeper etc, or use the local hotels. And the stalking fees would go a long way to paying the stalkers salaries, vehicles etc. Stalkers, some guests and stalkers friends would take care of the winter cull.

The whole system worked pretty well. But more importantly it did not rely on huge sums of public money.

Given the huge budget deficits, where is the money going to come from?

 

[Pete6.5]

The fairest pricing structure is not done on cheapest or the most expensive but the clearest. As long as you know where you stand and have no pressure put on you if you can't afford it you can get on and enjoy your day.

 

[opticron1]

I love having the treat of a day on the after a stag - as you say there is something special about being out during the rut!
I tend to take days at a fixed rate and if I'm fortunate to take a shot, it will be at the animal that the stalker deems to be suitable. The stalker will be on the ground day in, day out and will have a good idea on what is available, be it a young or old animal. Always nice to take a set of antlers home, but just happy to be out - I think it would spoil it for me if I had to see whether I could afford a few more points or not!

 

[Stalker62]

The fairest pricing structure is not done on cheapest or the most expensive but the clearest.

Very much this.

I never want to be in the position (I have been), of thinking "Can I pay for this shot?"




FWIW

I cannot "afford" any shot - but there is a difference.

 

[Pete6.5]

There's nothing wrong with shot fees. I find the places without shot fees are places where you are less likely to shoot deer or big stags/bucks. Most places that have a shot fee are usually confident you are going to get multiple deer or a good chance at a big buck or stag. But there are exceptions

 

[Eddie P]

I was lucky to have an invite on the stags in Scotland, I was happy for the experience and to shoot any stag.

I've also been out with friends and shot nice bucks, which if I was out commercially would have been financially embarrassing (I can't afford £1500 trophy fees), so I'd prefer a flat rate day, you know where you are with that.

 

[CastleStalker]

Transparency with the pricing is key to an enjoyable day. So long as you know what you’re paying for then it shouldn’t be a surprise at the end of the day. I’ve not personally shot anything more than 11 points as I simply can’t justify it, does it make my day any less enjoyable? Absolutely not! It’s the whole experience of the day and the company your in that makes it not just the shot.

 

[AngusBellf]

Thought I’d post this for interest as I think opinions will be mixed. I’ve had days on the hill where you pay a flat rate and you take whatever stag you’re given, be it a switch or an old royal.

I’ve also had estate days where you pay A as a flat rate and you pay B on top if it’s 10 points or more. Be it a couple of hundred quid supplement for a 10 point and £1-£2k for a 14-16 pointer,(they had some about).

Which would you say is the fairest from a guest perspective and also from an estate perspective? I’m all for culling off the worst stags but at the same time, I’d rather shoot a hind at half the price than full fat for a switch.

I can see the appeal in spending all day trying to pick out one particular switch from a hunting perspective. Just from a coin toss on a day rate, it’s maybe not the best value for money.

I have to say, where I’ve stalked in the past, the guide usually tries to let you take the best of the worst 3 - 4 and then try and mop up the poorest at another point.

Be interested to know your thoughts and experiences. I have to say, I’m becoming more of a frosty day on the hinds and a good hike kind of person but you can’t beat the hills when they’re roaring

I think as long as it is all 100% clear in advance, then it really makes no difference. Each will suit different people.

As long as you are not in a situation, having taken a shot, where you find the price to far exceed expectations due to lack of clarity.

 

[Pete6.5]

I've taken loads of people out stalking over the years and never charged a bean and one thing I can say for certain is the bigger the buck/stag the happier they have been on the trip back. So I'm afraid size does matter and that is why they will always cost more to shoot.

 

[wildfowler.250]

I was always aiming to hit that sweet spot of being able to provide a decent stalking experience covering ground and getting into a stag for them that had a decent bit of character to him.

Cheers folks! Certainly hadn’t thought about it from a transparency point of view and there’s probably a lot to be said for that. I was thinking along the lines of whether there was more value to paying for what you actually shoot but I suppose the flat rate makes the day more enjoyable.

I think the above comment nails exactly what the majority of us are looking after. A good day covering ground and a bit of character. 100% agree

 

[tiny tim]

I think stags are over priced and the estate attitude will haveto change if they don't want government culls on the land. I think a set price fee for the day and shoot what you can sort of thing is bound to happen in the future...one way or the other. I can see, in the future, the government making the estates pay for the culls if they deem their deer are over populated.

 

[opticron1]

I think stags are over priced and the estate attitude will haveto change if they don't want government culls on the land. I think a set price fee for the day and shoot what you can sort of thing is bound to happen in the future...one way or the other. I can see, in the future, the government making the estates pay for the culls if they deem their deer are over populated.

They already have that capability up here..... If the estate refuses to cull the desired/set number of deer, cullers can be brought in and the cost charged to the estate. One estate I used to shoot on had this very problem with the new owner and had to get a contractor in pretty sharply!

 

[wildfowler.250]

I think stags are over priced and the estate attitude will haveto change if they don't want government culls on the land. I think a set price fee for the day and shoot what you can sort of thing is bound to happen in the future...one way or the other. I can see, in the future, the government making the estates pay for the culls if they deem their deer are over populated.

It’s strange. I think if you get a nice old, 8-10 pointer off the hill then it’s good money compared to down south and paying per point into the thousands. But there’s something very unappealing about a beast with sabre/single tops

 

[William Grant]

It’s strange. I think if you get a nice old, 8-10 pointer off the hill then it’s good money compared to down south and paying per point into the thousands. But there’s something very unappealing about a beast with sabre/single tops

Hal imo if your wanting big heads or trophys go to the continent taking switches or 6 pointers for instance on the hill should not detract from the experience these animals are better removed for genetics and the injury they can inflict on other stags during the rut.

 

[homer]

I must admit, I like paying a set outing fee, then a price per point/beast should you get one.
This way, if you are unsuccessful, your not being charged the full amount, just to go for a walk.

 

[Heym SR20]

I think stags are over priced and the estate attitude will haveto change if they don't want government culls on the land. I think a set price fee for the day and shoot what you can sort of thing is bound to happen in the future...one way or the other. I can see, in the future, the government making the estates pay for the culls if they deem their deer are over populated.

Under the Deer Act and the old Scottish Deer Commission, this is exactly what did happen. Deer Manangement Groups (land owners and stalkers) in partnership with Deer Commission would set target culls for each estate. Deer Commission would send in their own stalkers were not achieved, although more often neighbouring estates would puck up the slack.

 

[Mungo]

I think stags are over priced and the estate attitude will haveto change if they don't want government culls on the land. I think a set price fee for the day and shoot what you can sort of thing is bound to happen in the future...one way or the other. I can see, in the future, the government making the estates pay for the culls if they deem their deer are over populated.

Look up the proposed ‘Deer Management Nature Restoration Orders’…

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

There's nothing wrong with shot fees. I find the places without shot fees are places where you are less likely to shoot deer or big stags/bucks. Most places that have a shot fee are usually confident you are going to get multiple deer or a good chance at a big buck or stag. But there are exceptions

Not too sure about that

You used to, having paid a stalking fee have a reasonable expectation of shooting a deer and if a trophy was involved the costs had been clearly identified and that was it

Shot fee's entered the equation and before long a lot of people jumped on this opportunity which just added additional expense.

Im sure before shot fee's folk werent running stalking businesses at a loss

Shot fee's were initially a topic of heated debate but have just become accepted now

All businesses need to be profitable to remain viable and nobody wants to see them not making a living