The leisure stalkers , why , how , where do we fit in ?

[Nimrod1960]

Musing over a good breakfast on the way back from a successful high seat session this morning. I wondered if any of the organisations BASC BDS etc have any data on the role of the keen amateur like myself in the grand scheme of deer control.

I take 20ish deer a year , roe and muntjac on ground I access for free or a nominal fee. Process all the meat myself , joints, mince, sausages, biltong. Eaten or given away to friends. Is that above / below average for a non professional ?

Given the tendency for ever more regulation by our ever more intrusive rulers I thought some data via survey would help support the various organisations in pushing back. A bit like a deer version of the recent BASC report which whilst very commendable was a bit bird shooting bias ( understandably).

Would it be useful to have a simple crib sheet or leaflet that explains to the unknowing public, deer in the uk and why they have to be controlled , putting a positive spin on venison ?

Breakfast musing over.

 

[maximus otter]

Small-scale "fridge, friends & family" stalker here, too. I take between 8 to 15 deer per annum.

From memory of a (BASC?) fact sheet at a recent Stalking Show, the average stalker takes about 6 deer per annum; though obviously this stat is skewed at both ends by the pros who take hundreds annually, and the chaps who buy a week in the Highlands once a year to take one trophy stag.

It surely wouldn't take the big shooting organisations long to circulate a questionnaire to all members, giving some cold, hard facts for the debate?

maximus otter

 

[Heym SR20]

Musing over a good breakfast on the way back from a successful high seat session this morning. I wondered if any of the organisations BASC BDS etc have any data on the role of the keen amateur like myself in the grand scheme of deer control.

I take 20ish deer a year , roe and muntjac on ground I access for free or a nominal fee. Process all the meat myself , joints, mince, sausages, biltong. Eaten or given away to friends. Is that above / below average for a non professional ?

Given the tendency for ever more regulation by our ever more intrusive rulers I thought some data via survey would help support the various organisations in pushing back. A bit like a deer version of the recent BASC report which whilst very commendable was a bit bird shooting bias ( understandably).

Would it be useful to have a simple crib sheet or leaflet that explains to the unknowing public, deer in the uk and why they have to be controlled , putting a positive spin on venison ?

Breakfast musing over.

No - I think you are pretty much the norm. Well certainly as far as i am concerned as you pretty much mimic myself, although no muntjac here in Scotland. Suspect you are probably managing a few hundred acres of farm / woodland.

I suspect that a very large number are managed in this way. Large estates and large commercial forestry may well employ professionals, but there are an awful lot of smaller blocks of land in the ownership of family farms etc with amateurs like you and I. For many of us stalking is not the primary source of our income, but is often a major source of interest, recreation etc. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Nimrod1960]

although no muntjac here in Scotland.

Yet !
Or should that be none spotted ?

 

[Pete6.5]

It could be a double edge sword with to much data if you have leisure stalkers holding alot of firearms and the powers to be think they can replace them with relatively small numbers of professional they might think it's another option.
Just for clarification I think there is very much a place for both.
They might also ask for data on deer shot form the acreage leisure stalkers have and decided they aren't capable of doing the job.

 

[bottletopbill]

Think all of us part time stalkers would take more if we had the chance and any unwanted carcasses could be donated to zoos or helping food banks or OAP's .
This way pro stalkers would not loose money of the game dealers and lower any prices.
We all have to work together to lower the number's and some land owner's need to help and not offer a safe haven for Bambi.

 

[Cris]

No data to back it up but gut feeling is there are far more part time recreational stalkers out there week in week out chipping away at numbers than professional stalkers make up. Also remember that even if its a professional stalker, he, she will be putting a recreational stalkers behind the gun more than them.

 

[bottletopbill]

Cris your comments show we are all working to lower the numbers.
Regardless of part time or pro stalker.
So do we need to extend the seasons or land owners who offer safe haven be made to control there number's

 

[Cris]

Cris your comments show we are all working to lower the numbers.
Regardless of part time or pro stalker.
So do we need to extend the seasons or land owners who offer safe haven be made to control there number's

We certainly need more cooperation between landowners and land managers to access and organise culls to achieve higher numbers from All involved in deer management at every level.
How do we achieve this with the UK’s historic land ownership and the secretive nature of shooting permissions ranging from free to thousands of pounds?
Personally I think we need a more structured approach to deer management through organised groups, clubs or societies, jointly managing a wider area per group of stalkers. Organised cull days over wider areas along with single stalker out culling.

 

[Tim.243]

Cris your comments show we are all working to lower the numbers.
Regardless of part time or pro stalker.
So do we need to extend the seasons or land owners who offer safe haven be made to control there number's

There are no professional pigeon shooters Bill and only hand full of guides, so it is left up to the hobby shooters to pick up the gun to millions of pigeons which cause far more damage to crops than deer as they have no season but restricted via the GL with regard to what they are shot over.
Get out and gain some field craft as it is all knowledge

 

[willie_gunn]

Personally I think we need a more structured approach to deer management through organised groups, clubs or societies, jointly managing a wider area per group of stalkers. Organised cull days over wider areas along with single stalker out culling.

Whilst I agree, I also recognise that this has been tried before without much success, viz. the Pang Valley Deer Management Group.

As I understand it the eventual failure was down to the patchwork nature of land ownership, the differing objectives of various landowners, conflict with other land use policies, and the natural suspicion inherent in all deer stalkers!

IMHO getting agreement on deer management on a wider scale in Southern England won’t happen without political intervention….and I am sure we can all imagine where that would lead.

 

[Tim.243]

We certainly need more cooperation between landowners and land managers to access and organise culls to achieve higher numbers from All involved in deer management at every level.
How do we achieve this with the UK’s historic land ownership and the secretive nature of shooting permissions ranging from free to thousands of pounds?
Personally I think we need a more structured approach to deer management through organised groups, clubs or societies, jointly managing a wider area per group of stalkers. Organised cull days over wider areas along with single stalker out culling.

Just how do you propose to get land owners/farmers to corporate? People leave deer year in year out just like timber, when it is ready they shoot it or cut it down to make the best profit.

 

[bottletopbill]

Lots of farms in Kent have banned all shooting at this present time due to some one shooting a fellow shooter at night using thermal.
The shooter controlled a lot of farms I shot a couple of fields for a couple of years.
Glad I gave up that place .
The other shooter was his mate and was lucky and still alive .
If all the stories i have heard are true we are all going to have a hard time in Kent .

 

[Apthorpe]

We certainly need more cooperation between landowners and land managers to access and organise culls to achieve higher numbers from All involved in deer management at every level.
How do we achieve this with the UK’s historic land ownership and the secretive nature of shooting permissions ranging from free to thousands of pounds?

Why on earth shouldn't it be secret? Not only is it nobody else's business, but it is a security risk to make this sort of information transparently known. The only beneficiaries from this sort of thing are socialists and antis.

Personally I think we need a more structured approach to deer management through organised groups, clubs or societies, jointly managing a wider area per group of stalkers. Organised cull days over wider areas along with single stalker out culling.

Why? If your premise is that too few deer are being shot on your ground, just shoot more or share the ground? Alternatively, if you think too few are being shot on someone else's ground, that slightly comes down to wondering why your opinion is better than the other person's. Regardless of that, what you recommend of having an organised group manage a wider area per group has the mathematical problem that you then necessarily have less shooting effort being done.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Two things give me cause for concern:

1. In 2022 there was a Government/DEFRA UK-wide consultation on deer management.
(The need for such due to accepted numbers and commensurate damage within the landscape).

It was never published and in consequence nothing, that I'm aware of, has come of it.

2. Only today we learn of another Government (FSA) consultation:

Call for Evidence: The impact of discounts on charges for official controls and other official activities in relation to meat premises

The purpose of the call for evidence is to gather evidence on how discounts applied to charges for official controls (OC) and other official activities (OOA) for businesses in the meat sector provide benefits to businesses and consumers

www.food.gov.uk

The basis for this is as per the above link but my fear is the deal is already done and all abattoirs, of any size, will soon have to meet the significant increase in inspection costs. Further, how long before the FSA apply their food hygiene and public safety reasoning to registered "Small Foof Business" such as deerstalking butchers?

K

 

[Pete6.5]

No data to back it up but gut feeling is there are far more part time recreational stalkers out there week in week out chipping away at numbers than professional stalkers make up. Also remember that even if its a professional stalker, he, she will be putting a recreational stalkers behind the gun more than them.

I know a few professionals and they don't take clients out at all.

 

[baguio]

I suspect that 20 is quite a high number for the average recreational freezer filler and that’s where the problem lies because despite taking 20, the average recreational stalker ties up land that would produce far more than that for a keener person and are therefore actually breeding deer and increasing the deer population in the grand scheme of things.
How often do we read about people passing on land that is too distant for them as apposed to grabbing it with both hands with no expectation of stalking it more than once or twice a year?

 

[Cris]

Whilst I agree, I also recognise that this has been tried before without much success, viz. the Pang Valley Deer Management Group.

As I understand it the eventual failure was down to the patchwork nature of land ownership, the differing objectives of various landowners, conflict with other land use policies, and the natural suspicion inherent in all deer stalkers!

IMHO getting agreement on deer management on a wider scale in Southern England won’t happen without political intervention….and I am sure we can all imagine where that would lead.

Yep 100% with you. Been stalking in the South for over 30years and nothing but political intervention will bring it about. I was asked my opinion and gave an answer.

 

[Cris]

I know a few professionals and they don't take clients out at all.

Few being the key word here. Far to few to make a difference, especially in southern England.

 

[bottletopbill]

Any perm should be visited at least once a week I have 400 acres for over ten years no deer couple of foxes rabbits are making a come back.
But at least it is a perm.