which new binos?!?

I often ponder the bino thing and the Swaro marketing machine. Now I don't doubt that Swaro make good binos, possibly the best and certainly up there with the best, but I think that what you buy with Swaro and, to a slightly lesser extent the other big name makes, is a complete package. Swaro go big on customer service, especially if the binos are damaged or need repair, and this will be important for those who make their living using their binos and so this part of the total package is worth paying for in the view of many users and it is also a marketing point for Swaro.

I guess the end user needs to consider the whole package and with binos the marketing would seem to indicate that Swaro lead the field.

However, this is not to say they are necessarily the best despite the fact that I know of none better. Some little time back I had the chance to look through a rifle scope made by a little known name and it was the best optic I've ever had the chance to use. The company don't do a big marketing thing, in fact I've never known them to do any marketing at all, and I've never met anyone else who has heard of them never mind actually looked through one. It seems to me that it is well possible that a similar situation may exist with binos whereby some company who doesn't go big on marketing is quietly turning out binos somewhat better in all respects that the mass marketed offerings that we generally use and praise.
 
I often ponder the bino thing and the Swaro marketing machine. Now I don't doubt that Swaro make good binos, possibly the best and certainly up there with the best, but I think that what you buy with Swaro and, to a slightly lesser extent the other big name makes, is a complete package. Swaro go big on customer service, especially if the binos are damaged or need repair, and this will be important for those who make their living using their binos and so this part of the total package is worth paying for in the view of many users and it is also a marketing point for Swaro.

I guess the end user needs to consider the whole package and with binos the marketing would seem to indicate that Swaro lead the field.

I agree to an extent, but Swaro have not cornered the market on excellent customer service. Leupold (who make my binos) and Vortex (who make my favourite scope) both offer "bulletproof" warranties.
 
Must be a fault with the swarovski's then!

Moray Outfitting hit the nail on the head when he said:

Zeiss, Leica & Swarovski stalkers use their binos constantly - you see and sense it as you guide them along. Other makes spend more time hanging than viewing

Its so true, I have EL 10x42 Swarovski and they are my eyes! When I am stalking they are constantly being used, whereas friends of mine with other entry range brands just leave them hanging or leave them in the car, or forget them. I don;t think I have ever forgotten to take my bins stalking as I would miss them too much! I also agree the 56's become to big and bulky.

Is it not a case then that your friends either have a different stalking style to you or maybe arent as efficent as you and its nothing to do with the binos?
 
Ok, I have been looking at the exact same binoculars – Zeiss Victory FL 10x56 and Swarovski EL 10x50. I have compared them side-by-side, and they are both extremely good binoculars. I don’t think that you would be unhappy with either, but there are differences between the two. Forgive me if this is a bit long winded, but if I am going to spend £1500-1800 on anything, you can bet I will agonise and over-analyse the thing!

Firstly, 8x or 10x? You get a wider field of view with the FL 8x42, FL 8x56 and EL 8.5x42, compared to any of the 10x binoculars from the same makers. Yes, some people find that they can see more detail with 8/8.5x because there is less hand-held image shake. But, when you get into low light, assuming a decent aperture of 4mm+ you will resolve more detail in low light with 10x than you will with 8x because you get a bigger image. The visual acuity of the eye is so poor in low light that magnification trumps aperture (assuming that the aperture is big enough to let sufficient light through for you to see. Yes, you might get a brighter image with 8x because of a larger aperture letting more light in, but believe me, looking at a deer in the almost dark, most of the brightness will be from the background and the deer will appear black. With 10x, you are more likely to see more detail. That is the basis of the twighlight factor specifications for the binocular. It is not a perfect mathematical formula, but comparing the binoculars that people actually buy, it is a useful one.

I have 10x42 EL at the moment and I think that you are correct to be looking at 10x50 or 10x56. Why? Because they offer a larger aperture and consequently offer an easier view. Part of the reason that 8x42 and 8.5x42 offer such a pleasing view is due to the 5.25/5mm aperture. I would not personally buy another 10x42 for dawn/dusk viewing, because 10x50/56 offers a much more relaxed view and lets so much more light through.

So what is the real difference between the Swarovski EL and the Zeiss FL? They are both excellent in their own way, but the design engineers made a series of choices which reflect the different design philosophies. The Zeiss uses Abbe-Konig prisms in the x42 and x56 models, while Swarovski uses Schmidt Pecan prisms (which Zeiss also uses in the x32 models). While there may be arguments over the numbers, apparently Abbe-Konig prisms are more efficient, offering around 2% better light transmission (I read that Zeiss reckons its x32 models have 2% lower light transmission compared to the x42 models simply because of the different prisms). The different prisms also dictate the shape of the binocular barrels, with the Swarovski being narrower than the Zeiss FL.

Compared to the Zeiss Victory FL, the latest Swarovision EL also includes extra eyepiece elements to compensate for distortion at the edge of the field of view in order to produce its signature ‘flat field of view’ with ‘sharp’ edges. This provides stunning static images, no question. However, there are two trade-offs in producing this flat field image. Firstly, and possibly most importantly, the compound distortion used to achieve the sharp edges means that when panning, you can set up a globe effect (also known as rolling ball) where you can see the image bending/rotating at the edge of the field of view (in most binoculars, this is countered by varying amounts of pincushion distortion). Some people find this distracting, even nauseating, while some don’t notice it. Using the EL 10x50, it jumped out at me when panning along the edge of woodland and bramble covered banks, but I did not get to use it for long enough to know whether I would get used to it or not. It is distinctly different to the pre-swarovision EL, Zeiss FL and Leica Ultravid HD. Secondly, the more eyepiece elements you have, the more glass-to-air surfaces you have and the more light transmission is reduced. I have not seen measurements for the EL50, but I think that it is commonly accepted that Swarovski designed the EL for maximising colour rendition and contrast, which it does very well, rather than transmission (the opposite was true for the SLC). Whether you can see the 2-3% or so difference in transmission is a moot point.

The Zeiss Victory FL does not have these additional flat field eyepiece elements, but (as for all binoculars, including the EL) uses pincushion distortion to correct for the rolling globe/rolling ball effect produced when panning. The binocular was designed to produce maximum light transmission and a superlative images across the centre of the field of view. This is achieves very well, with great colour definition and high contrast. However, in contrast to the Swarovski, the edges of the field of view are not clear. I could see a ring around the edge of the field of view which was not in focus (astigmatism). Just as some people find the Swarovision sharp edges (rolling ball) distracting, some people find the relatively soft edges of the Zeiss FL distracting. But, no-one objects to the superlative centre-field image in the Zeiss FL.

I haven’t seen light transmission curve graphs for the FL 10x56 or EL 10x50, but these graphs show the difference between the 8.5x42 EL Swarovision and the 8x56 FL. For info, the visible part of the spectrum is between 380 and 750 nm.

47807_tran_swar10x42.jpg


24609_zeiss_victory_tr.jpg
 
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So, which would I pick? I made a brief comparison of some of the practical differences on another website. These are some of my impressions:

Weight and handling comfort – the EL 10x50 is not a substantial increase in size compared to my old EL 10x42. Given my familiarity with the EL42, it is perhaps not surprising that the EL50 felt just as familiar in the hand. The weight difference seemed negligible; I certainly did not feel any significant difference raising them and holding them to my eyes. If anything, the slightly wider barrels made the EL50 even more comfortable in my hands compared to the EL42. Very comfortable to hold in the shop and outside, with cold hands and finally with gloves on. I did not feel that a harness would be necessary as quite honestly they felt very similar to the EL42.

The FL 10x56 is altogether larger. As others have commented, they are very well balanced, but the weight difference is noticeable. For me, a harness would most likely be necessary for all but the shortest hikes. They did not feel uncomfortable to hold up to my eyes and I can’t say that they were any more fatiguing than other binoculars, in fact I thought that they were probably the easiest of the two to hold steady. They are larger in the hands too, still comfortable, but for my hands very much on the large side and not easy to operate with gloves on.

Focusing ease and quickness – the EL50 focus was much smoother than my old EL42, but then they are 10 years old and probably in need of some TLC. No stiffness noticeable due to the cold and no discernable difference in rotating in either direction. Very easy to focus the image. Worked well with gloves too.

The FL56 had much less resistance in the focusing knob and I think that I did not have to rotate the knob as far in order to move from close to far focus (didn’t pay too much attention to this though). However I did find it more difficult to reach the knob with gloves on (due to my hands), although still easy to rotate and focus. Overall though, I found that for distance viewing (woodland edge at about 150 yards) I was constantly adjusting the focus very small amounts, which I did not have to do with the EL50.

Colour fringing (chromatic aberration) – not very noticeable at all in either the EL50 or FL56. Honestly I didn’t observe a significant difference between the two, but if I had to pick the best performer I would probably pick the FL.

Scattered light when viewing near the sun – the FL did perform better when viewing at an angle towards the setting sun. The EL suffered a bit more with image wash-out and flare compared to the FL. In the FL, this was only a factor when looking at an angle of ~25 degrees or so on to the setting sun. Very few flares observed with the FL and comparatively little wash-out.

But, never buy a binocular based on another person’s opinion. You really need to look at them yourself and see which you prefer. You should also consider the Leica Ultravid HD 10x50, which is very similar in size to the EL50 but doesn’t suffer from either the rolling ball of the EL or the soft edges of the FL. I fully intend to buy one of these three, but which one really depends on your intended use and which is the most comfortable for you to use. One thing that I have not been able to do is compare all three side-by-side, or the EL and FL though dusk into dark. I think the only way you’ll be able to do that is to buy both on sale or return and return one. The online distance selling regulations may help with that. Good luck and don’t be dissuaded – you can’t buy better at this time.
 
i do woodland stalking, and my mate who share ground has swaro, i use minox, they both perform very similar in low light, but you get the colour with the swaro 10 min prior to minox, but clarity of an object is not worth £1300 more, unless you have brewsters !!!!!

i recently bought a Vortex scope & am chuffed to bits, lifetime transferable warrenty as well.
 
Binoculars are very much a personal thing and important to get a pair that fit you. All our eyes are different, along with the shape of our faces and just as important as the quality of optics is how they fit, balance and suit you.

Personally I don't like Swarovski 8.5x42 bins - optically magnificent and can't fault them, but just don't like the way they feel and fit my face - I just can't get comfortable with them. Their smaller 8x30 I much prefer. I use Zeiss classic 7x42 BGATs - if you can find a pair grab hold of them.
 
I would recommend the Swarovski SLC 8x42 HD Binos.
I would use them doing stalking from a highseat at first light.
Excellent quality.
 
Can you recommend what would be best Binocular Suspender Harness?
The Swarovski Bino Suspender harness only keeps the eyepiece close to your chest.
 
Hopefully original poster hasnt lost the will to live!

Some very good detail, information and opinion on here - and we haven't fallen out over it!:D

Everyone is a bit different - and long may it be so - think ultimately will come down to what feels best to you.

In terms of Swarovski - they work for me. Choice was made with luxury of seeing lots of different binoculars and getting chance to try them and all the elements per my post above. They worked for me, may not do so for others.

Without extending the 'argument' side of this thread, and acknowledging that fashions get followed by professional stalkers just as much as anyone else - but it is noticeable that so many pro stalkers up here wear Swarovski. In fact clients comment on it. Maybe it is huge fashion, but it doesnt tend to be the highest paid profession and money gets spent carefully.

If you are in position to buy top end, that is my advice. If you are not then undoubtedly there are a number of makes that will deliver very good performance per £ - arguably better than the top end models if considered purely on performance.

We are looking at taking on Vortex to meet exactly that niche - with as has been noted a fantastic warranty and reportedly super customer service.
 
I have a set of 8.5x42 el's bought them second hand they are a few years old but with the Swarovski after care as it is, £800 was a no brainer.
They go everywhere with me even when I walk the dog:D
Had an old pair of Zeiss from the 70's that I was using before good but not a patch on the el's.
Just a thought if you can find a second hand pair you will be getting top quality glass that someone else has taken the big hit on.
 
thanks!

Thank you everyone, some really great advice and feedback, giving me lots to consider. I went to the Camera shop in Winchester and tried the Swaro 8.5 x 42 and Zeiss (but not 8x56). On demo outside they seemed the same to me, maybe the Swaro very marginally better but not £300 better IMHO. Both well engineered bits of kit and easier to handle and use.

A wildcard option has also emerged as can get a very good deal on Steiner binos through a trade friend. They have Steiner Nighthunter XP 8x56 binos with porro prism for £770 RRP less trade discount etc. Not quite in the price or quality bracket of the Swaro or Zeiss but maybe a good enough option allowing funds to be spent on other kit and stalks. Looking at the forum, all seems positive on the Steiners but any comments welcome.

Thanks again. :)
 
Strictly, strictly personal thing. Steiners haven't really lit my fire.

On the 'hanging round neck v looking through' test they seem to fall right in the middle!:-|
 
10x50 are too strong and 42mm objectives are too small in my opinion, i also shoot in very low light and now have Minox 8x58's which are very good but quite heavy. The best bino's i have ever had were Zeiss Victory 8x56's which were the business! I would go for 8x56 and not look at anything else, as for the make, Zeiss and Swarovski are both fantastic and i dont think you will see much difference between the two.
 
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