To thermal or not to thermal…

[jthyttin]

I think it was Kevgun (of the Drone mount fame) that used top end thermal scopes from different manufacturers and went back to digital NV after letting go three foxes in short period of time due to non-100% ID. They were sitting / lying at hedges and so on.

Flip side of the coin is Strike's post #69, in other conditions (I assume moving foxes) thermal will lead to more succesful shots.

 

[Kevgun]

It's horses for courses, we recently had a Fox laid down asleep in a field, My mate with his all singing all dancing thermal, kept telling me its a Roe deer laid down, I wasn't convinced however he was on the rifle so it was his call, however after 30 minutes we were about to go, I decided to get my Rifle out of the Truck and check what we thought was a Roe deer, however looking through my x15 Drone pro I could quite easily see it was a Fox, interestly it didn't respond to any call or Noise, So I think in some cases NV is better, I do Fox control at a Private schools playing field near London with a Friend, and several times I have had domestic dogs walk out on to the playing fields even though No one is meant to be in there whilst shooting is in progress, So a Thermal is great for checking everywhere before shooting that's why we do it in pairs but there is no way I would shoot with a Thermal Scope because ID has to Be 100% not 99.99%

 

[finnbear270]

Horses for courses, and experienced eyes, a laid up fox wouldn't have me shooting it anyway ... unless a coup de grace. I want full body in view and preferably with movement anything out over 200 yards, inside 200 yards I D is easy with anything.

 

[jthyttin]

a laid up fox wouldn't have me shooting it anyway

But what would you do? Leave it? Close in until positive ID? Do the same for every lump that might be laid up fox?

It really isn't a fair comparison, if shooter A has the luxury of leaving foxes or spending considerable extra time for positive ID. And shooter B does not.

 

[finnbear270]

How do you know it was a fox? How close were you?

 

[the prowler]

There's no way on this earth can you possibly I'd a fox 100% of the time with nv and thermal. Truth. When there's cover present.

 

[mealiejimmy]

There's no way on this earth can you possibly I'd a fox 100% of the time with nv and thermal. Truth. When there's cover present.

The same can be said for any method of spotting a target
There's plenty of occasions during daylight when it's not possible to identify a potential target with even the best binoculars
Whether it's daylight with binoculars or thermal, or in darkness with NV or thermal, the same rule applies - don't shoot unless you're 100% certain you know what you are about to shoot at
Experience plays a significant part in the being 100% certain
People who shoot with thermal all the time simply become better at identifying targets than people who only dabble with thermal and then pontificate that thermal is not good enough


Cheers

Bruce

 

[the prowler]

The same can be said for any method of spotting a target
There's plenty of occasions during daylight when it's not possible to identify a potential target with even the best binoculars
Whether it's daylight with binoculars or thermal, or in darkness with NV or thermal, the same rule applies - don't shoot unless you're 100% certain you know what you are about to shoot at
Experience plays a significant part in the being 100% certain
People who shoot with thermal all the time simply become better at identifying targets than people who only dabble with thermal and then pontificate that thermal is not good enough


Cheers

Bruce

Definitely Bruce, what ever method you use. Be 100% certain of what your shooting at. Am sure a guy got shot at night watching lampers. The red lens on is binoculars were mistaken for quarry. And he got shot with a 243win.

 

[mealiejimmy]

A few years ago a guy in Norway or Sweden was shot by a hunter using a thermal riflescope who failed to 100% identify his target

Cheers

Bruce

 

[the prowler]

Yes very easily done if your complaint in safety.

 

[jthyttin]

How do you know it was a fox? How close were you?

If the question was directed at me, I don't shoot foxes with NV or thermal, not allowed here. Only raccoon dogs, and there's no financial interest (also wild boar, and whitetail deer under special license and extra conditions are allowed).

But many shooters in UK have financial interest in foxing, either direct or paid to do a job. And the point is, you cannot only judge the "betterness" of any device by looking at false positive rate (i.e. how many targets you've identified as fox and they were not) but also false negative rate (how many foxes you let run, since you didn't ID 100%)

 

[Strike]

Whether you use, Thermal, NV. or a lamp.
As far as identification, vs distance goes
If you are not 100% sure, its simple, Do Not
Take the shot.
There are ways to get a slumbering fox to at least lift its head, maybe even get up turn around, even if it lies down again. These movements may allow identification, if not, don't be lazy, close the distance. Let the fox scent or hear you, chances are it'll get up, and if at long distance, will check you out for a second or so. With luck, if you are using Thermal, you'll get the shot. If not, catch up with it another day. It is only with experience, you will pick up the tricks, that you need, to floor Mr. or Mrs, Fox.
GISS, General Impression of Size and Shape.
This is a well established method of identification used by the military, twitchers, and others. It is the study of a combination of characteristics and movement that distinguish one species from another. This of course, relies on experience.
Experience being the key requirement, to be confident.

 

[Nickb]

Whether you use, Thermal, NV. or a lamp.
As far as identification, vs distance goes
If you are not 100% sure, its simple, Do Not
Take the shot.
There are ways to get a slumbering fox to at least lift its head, maybe even get up turn around, even if it lies down again. These movements may allow identification, if not, don't be lazy, close the distance. Let the fox scent or hear you, chances are it'll get up, and if at long distance, will check you out for a second or so. With luck, if you are using Thermal, you'll get the shot. If not, catch up with it another day. It is only with experience, you will pick up the tricks, that you need, to floor Mr. or Mrs, Fox.
GISS, General Impression of Size and Shape.
This is a well established method of identification used by the military, twitchers, and others. It is the study of a combination of characteristics and movement that distinguish one species from another. This of course, relies on experience.
Experience being the key requirement, to be confident.

100 % ID is key which goes without saying.

It's very annoying when you call in a hare thinking its a fox

I watched a fox crossing a field and ended up in the same position as 3 hares , when they were stationary you couldn't tell them apart as they all looked the same size , only when the fox moved could you ID it .

 

[Kevgun]

There's no way on this earth can you possibly I'd a fox 100% of the time with nv and thermal. Truth. When there's cover present.

Exactly this, if in doubt leave it, in the grand scheme of things it's not that important, there will be another night when ID is much easier.

 

[the prowler]

Definitely, been at the hunting game too long. There's always another time.

 

[Hunters moon]

I began using TI around 7 years ago, a Pulsar XD 38. I 'cut my teeth', so to speak, on learning how to ID animals by movement, behaviour, characteristics etc using this 4-5 days/nights per week.
Some two years ago I made the leap to a Thermion scope. I've never regreted it ! Having used a variety of tubed and digital night-vision devices, and before that....lamps/torches/car batteries etc..oh the nostalgia ! My Thermoion has revolutionised my foxing ! The important bit was what went before, using the spotter and learning how to, as far as is possible, identify what it was you were seeing.
At the end of the day, whatever set-up, if in doubt...don't take the shot. As 'Walked-Up' alluded to earlier, I think many amongst us will have experienced that 'nervous feeling' !
Anyhoo 'FB', go get your thermal scope, learn how to use it and enjoy, you won't regret it !

'Camodog'.

Hi, I have an XD75. Old technology now but still love it to bits. I now have two, like you the story is far more important. You are more covert so take your time and if unsure dont pull, we all know that. Recently upgraded to a senopex and the learning has started again at X7 base mag