Effectiveness of lead free ammunition

[Keith Edmunds]

Yes it would be difficult to recover the bullet. I am 20 years in and have never recovered a TTSX from a deer! I’m not convinced that you need to hit bone in order to get expansion. Perhaps a test target of lflank muscle then ung tissue followed by a rib cage and board would be worthwhile? I’ll have a think….

If I reloaded I would certainly try the TTSX.

 

[big ears]

Mmmh, I did think this, but 2,900fps still knocking on a bit for a 7mm-08. I suppose the problem for 7mm-08 is that perennial one, that the majority of .284 bullets are designed for calibers which push them along a bit quicker such as the 7mm rem mag etc etc, so tend to be a little bit tougher.
However the .270’s .277 diameter bullets were giving similar problems and those bullets will have been pretty much designed for that caliber, although not exclusively.

The problem as you say is the bullet. Either go to more frangable like yew tree or try another monolithic.
I shoot Barnes TTSX out of my 7x57 140gr at 2850fps. It expands and dies the job,

 

[Selous]

The problem as you say is the bullet. Either go to more frangable like yew tree or try another monolithic.
I shoot Barnes TTSX out of my 7x57 140gr at 2850fps. It expands and dies the job,

Have you tried the 120g 7mm TTSX?

 

[howa243]

Indeed


The work has been done , non toxic work very well.

Attitudes need to adjust along with some Education.

They work very well for those folks who have contributed and said that they do not? If attitudes are consequence of personal experience then why should they change?

 

[Rutland lad]

I'd disagree with they're better. Whilst they are a cracking bullet, they're that unpredictable I stopped using them. I found on a pretty regular basis that the large petals would pierce the diaphragm and ultimately split the stomach. I tried altering shot placement however could never get it right unless head/neck shot. They certainly put deer down on the spot and expand out to a good range but it's that unpredictability that's put me off them.

On the flip side, my usual 6mm + 6.5mm sierra TGK are 99 percent predictable. I had a piece of jacket go through the diaphragm a couple of days ago and again spill green inside the carcass but noway near as frequently at the TLR. They still give a good exit out to 400+ and usually drop things on the spot.

My understanding is the Yew Tree product is designed to break into petals or shed metal as it penetrates. The Fox, Barnes and others are designed to stay in one piece. Could this be why you’re experiencing the breakaway large petals ?
The fact that some no toxic is designed to be frangible is an issue for me. My deer enter the food chain via a butcher who doesn’t want any metal (lead or other) damaging his equipment or being found by the customer in his product.
I will not try anything which is designed to shed metal as it penetrates.

 

[Dave_45]

They work very well for those folks who have contributed and said that they do not? If attitudes are consequence of personal experience then why should they change?

As I said

You’d think deer were never blown to shreds with lead or indeed lost with lead before non toxic becoming an issue


Thousands of deer are killed with non toxic due to contract requirements.
Thousands upon thousands in the uk.

 

[howa243]

As I said

You’d think deer were never blown to shreds with lead or indeed lost with lead before non toxic becoming an issue


Thousands of deer are killed with non toxic due to contract requirements.
Thousands upon thousands in the uk.

Surely the fact that some folks are forced to shoot deer with copper doesn't validate the reason for the demand or the outcome. It could still be a stupid requirement and they could still perform badly.

Do they perform as well in the rifles currently being used, are they the same price and is the change necessary when taking into account the outcome.

Some would suggest not.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Surely the fact that some folks are forced to shoot deer with copper doesn't validate the reason for the demand or the outcome. It could still be a stupid requirement and they could still perform badly.

Do they perform as well in the rifles currently being used, are they the same price and is the change necessary when taking into account the outcome.

Some would suggest not.

I think it is important to remember that lead ammo wasn't perfect - we just put it under less scrutiny.

 

[timbrayford]

Would it not be more sensible to put aside woke arguments from the eco loonies and focus on ballistics and accuracy instead?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Would it not be more sensible to put aside woke arguments from the eco loonies and focus on ballistics and accuracy instead?

In target shooting that is the primary concern.
In Game shooting I personally belive it is a secondary consideration...after efficacy of terminal effect

More thought needs to be given to quarry type/weight, terminal velocity (MVRange etc), bullet construction

 

[Brighty3006]

Just back from Mull. 30.06 130 grain barnes ttsx 4 hinds .all at distance all dead on the spot. Homelands. Fantastic bullet

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Not all lead free ammo is made equal. Neilson seems to strike the best balance in my testing (over 6000 deer) as the large fragments still cary energy and continue to penetrate. Others seem to have fragments that are too light with only the base/ shank penetrating well.

At one deer every other day all year round ignoring seasons that equates to having been killing deer for 32.9 years with lead free. Please elaborate as your numbers are impressive.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

At one deer every other day all year round ignoring seasons that equates to having been killing deer for 32.9 years with lead free. Please elaborate as your numbers are impressive.

Or 7.5 years at 800 deer a year, there are quite a few people in the uk pushing the 800 mark

 

[FISH BOY]

I can only speak from my own experience with Winchester Copper Impact (.243 and .308), Nosler Etip (6.5 and .308) Hornady CX (.243 and 6.5) and Geco Zero (.308). I haven't used TTSX, they get great reviews and I am sure they are excellent.

I'd be very keen to see the exit hole of an example where the bullet entered between ribs, only passed through lungs and exited between ribs - as per my hypothetical example?

Of course, it would be impossible to demonstrate the actual expansion of the bullet as it would be somewhere in distant turf and totally unrecoverable - would it not?.

243 80gr TTSX - doe shot at c60 yards - ran 50 yards before expiring.

Dinky little exit hole.

Stepped up since to 120gr Sako Blades in 6.5CM - fantastic round - far more knock down authority over the 80gr.

 

[Dave_45]

243 80gr TTSX - doe shot at c60 yards - ran 50 yards before expiring.

Dinky little exit hole.

Stepped up since to 120gr Sako Blades in 6.5CM - fantastic round - far more knock down authority over the 80gr.

View attachment 397441

Do the blades fragment

 

[Loler UK]

At one deer every other day all year round ignoring seasons that equates to having been killing deer for 32.9 years with lead free. Please elaborate as your numbers are impressive.

I have a host of testers reporting back to me. All using our test ammunition. Some shoot over 400deer/ year

 

[FISH BOY]

Do the blades fragment

Never recovered one I’m afraid or found a shard.

 

[timbrayford]

In target shooting that is the primary concern.
In Game shooting I personally belive it is a secondary consideration...after efficacy of terminal effect

More thought needs to be given to quarry type/weight, terminal velocity (MVRange etc), bullet construction

Absolutely

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I have a host of testers reporting back to me. All using our test ammunition. Some shoot over 400deer/ year

Ah different to how you presented it. Was the test ammo always of the same make and calibre?

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Do the blades fragment

No they don't - not by design, they mushroom.