Effectiveness of lead free ammunition

[DCG]

Hopefully heading up to Scotland on the hinds in a few weeks . Will be using 150g Fox in 30-06. Will be interesting to see the results.

Please let us all know how you get on, as you say results will be interesting. Really like the Fox bullets, easy to load accuracy is good in my experience, just a little underwhelmed by the terminal performance on this occasion.

 

[DCG]

Go light and drive them fast.

Have shot several hundred with .270 Sako blade. Haven’t noticed any difference from lead. The odd one going a few steps further on, but as stated already on this thread, they didn’t all drop on the spot either with lead.

Admittedly, and I don’t apologise for it, I do shoot them through the shoulders. Highland Game even sent out an email to suggest bullet placement a bit further forward and hit bone. This definitely reduces the opportunity for non expansion.

Out of all the brands used locally, I’ve heard one stalker who didn’t get on well with blades, none with cx, and a small number who have stated they have had issues with other brands on the market. Again, with lead, some rifles like certain brands and don’t perform with others. We’re seeing the same on occasions with lead free.

One thing is for sure, it’s what we need to use going forward, and if you are selling a number of carcasses then it isn’t going away. Personally due to the positive experience I’ve had with my rifle and ammo combination, I wouldn’t go back.

Yes, the comment on bullet placement in particular, is the conclusion that we al came too.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

What did the bullets hit on entry? I think that makes a huge difference with copper, just by going between ribs rather than hitting one can make a big difference without even mentioning shoulder muscle and upper leg/shoulder bone.

 

[Jodie5864]

I use Winchester copper extreme 130 grain for my .270. Stags, knobbers, hinds, calves shot neck or heart depending on distance. Shot placement is the key with copper

 

[timbrayford]

Prompted by our recent experiences, during a trip to the highlands to the hinds, I felt the need to open a discussion amongst the group, about the effectiveness of lead free ammunition.
Four of us arrived to shoot hinds, having previously been told we’d only be allowed to use lead free ammunition, to find that the estate stalkers were less than impressed that we hadn’t brought any lead. In their words, all of the copper that they’d come across wasn’t up to the job and they’d be using lead until they couldn’t.
Of the four in our party, two were using .270 one of these using the Hornady 130gn CX, the other Winchester extreme point impact, again in 130gn. The remainder, using 7mm-08, one again using Hornady, this time 139gn CX, whilst I was using the 130gn Fox Classic Hunters.
I’ve personally used the Fox on Roe and downovers and whilst I felt that they might be a bit harsh, I’ve not had any complaints about their knockdown ability with this size of deer.
The hinds however were a different matter.
Across the group we generally found that both calves and the mature animals, when shot with a classic heart lung shot, generally just took, the impact standing with very little reaction, going down slowly, several seconds latter from blood loss. Also reports of a couple of peculiar internal ricochets and exit wounds. The conclusion was that whilst retaining the weight, the bullet with minimal expansion, was passing through the chest cavity without imparting much of its energy in the animal, leaving it standing and leading to a relatively slow death. Post Mortem results in the larder would tend to confirm this with minimal damage to the organs.
The general conclusion over a drink afterwards, amongst both us and the stalkers was that lead free ammunition in the lesser calibers ( not that I ever thought I’d hear myself describe the venerable .270 Winchester as a lesser caliber) just isn’t there yet. The bullets generally, aren’t imparting the bulk of their energy into the carcass and the only way to ensure a knockdown kill is to put the shot through the shoulder, with the ensuing carcass damage. The stalkers opinion is that we’re going to have to use bigger diameter bullets ( let’s try and explain this to the average FEO ).
In General, I think we all felt disillusioned over the performance of what, with lead, had been perfectly capable calibers, which tended to bare out the experience of the professionals.
What are you’re thoughts and experiences and have any of you found any bullets which you feel are performing well on the larger animals.

Not driving the bullets quick enough, drop down 20-30 grains or thereabouts

 

[DCG]

What did the bullets hit on entry? I think that makes a huge difference with copper, just by going between ribs rather than hitting one can make a big difference without even mentioning shoulder muscle and upper leg/shoulder bone.

I think you’re absolutely correct and this may very well be the key. Hence the opinion which we came to that copper perhaps needs to be shot higher and slightly further forward, unless of course we’re looking at neck shots etc.

 

[DCG]

Not driving the bullets quick enough, drop down 20-30 grains or thereabouts

Mmmh, I did think this, but 2,900fps still knocking on a bit for a 7mm-08. I suppose the problem for 7mm-08 is that perennial one, that the majority of .284 bullets are designed for calibers which push them along a bit quicker such as the 7mm rem mag etc etc, so tend to be a little bit tougher.
However the .270’s .277 diameter bullets were giving similar problems and those bullets will have been pretty much designed for that caliber, although not exclusively.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Mmmh, I did think this, but 2,900fps still knocking on a bit for a 7mm-08. I suppose the problem for 7mm-08 is that perennial one, that the majority of .284 bullets are designed for calibers which push them along a bit quicker such as the 7mm rem mag etc etc, so tend to be a little bit tougher.
However the .270’s .277 diameter bullets were giving similar problems and those bullets will have been pretty much designed for that caliber, although not exclusively.

I would wager that a really fast copper bullet, slipping between ribs (entry and exit) would also suffer poor expansion when simply passing through lungs. The deer would still die of course - but might run on and take longer to expire that a shoulder hit, then through both lungs...shoulder exit example.

Many favour 'behind the shoulder' shots to reduce meat damage and I do get it - I suppose it all depends on priorities. For me, the animal going down fast and dyeing quickly is tops.

 

[Border]

I would wager that a really fast copper bullet, slipping between ribs (entry and exit) would also suffer poor expansion when simply passing through lungs. The deer would still die of course - but might run on and take longer to expire that a shoulder hit, then through both lungs...shoulder exit example.

Many favour 'behind the shoulder' shots to reduce meat damage and I do get it - I suppose it all depends on priorities. For me, the animal going down fast and dyeing quickly is tops.

I wrote a reply to this thread yesterday but deleted it before posting due to my relative inexperience with deer and non lead ammunition.
Basically it went along the lines of what has been said in the last few posts.
Aim for shoulder/hilar triangle.
Lungs, I have heard described as froth filled sponges which aren't enough resistance to initiate bullet expansion, with the possible exception of varmint bullets. So it is advantageous to target dense muscle or bone to help expansion.
We have all heard of lead bullets that have pencilled through the thorax without hitting ribs in or out.
At the moment we can still mostly choose which type of bullets we want to use. In the future I don't think that lead will be viable.
I intend to shoot non lead next season, my sole experience so far being 1 roebuck with a barnes tsx many years ago. I have no doubt that they will work.....

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I wrote a reply to this thread yesterday but deleted it before posting due to my relative inexperience with deer and non lead ammunition.
Basically it went along the lines of what has been said in the last few posts.
Aim for shoulder/hilar triangle.
Lungs, I have heard described as froth filled sponges which aren't enough resistance to initiate bullet expansion, with the possible exception of varmint bullets. So it is advantageous to target dense muscle or bone to help expansion.
We have all heard of lead bullets that have pencilled through the thorax without hitting ribs in or out.
At the moment we can still mostly choose which type of bullets we want to use. In the future I don't think that lead will be viable.
I intend to shoot non lead next season, my sole experience so far being 1 roebuck with a barnes tsx many years ago. I have no doubt that they will work.....

At least we have options with lead-free.

Firstly what people class as mono-metal or monolithic - basically a copper alloy bullet, usually with a hollow tip section and often some sort of tip to aid initial expansion - these usually mushroom well, penetrate well and have great weight retention.

Next we have the prefragmented tin options - Gecco zero and RWS Evo Green. These are designed to work in a similar way to lead with the front section breaking up into small pieces and the rear shank following through.

The third category is the copper/copper alloy with a front section that is designed to have petals that peel back and break away from the rear shank - again the rear shank continues to penetrate and hopefully exit.

There might be other types too. I have tried the first two types and shot over 100 deer with them. I find the mono-metal more predictable but both types work.

 

[Selous]

I would wager that a really fast copper bullet, slipping between ribs (entry and exit) would also suffer poor expansion when simply passing through lungs. The deer would still die of course - but might run on and take longer to expire that a shoulder hit, then through both lungs...shoulder exit example.

Many favour 'behind the shoulder' shots to reduce meat damage and I do get it - I suppose it all depends on priorities. For me, the animal going down fast and dyeing quickly is tops.

Not my experience at all. My impression is that the TTSX at an appropriately high impact velocity expand very quickly indeed. The Yew Tree TLR slightly less quickly

 

[Utectok]

Not my experience at all. My impression is that the TTSX at an appropriately high impact velocity expand very quickly indeed. The Yew Tree TLR slightly less quickly

I’d say the reverse? I gave up on Barnes ttsx as I had problems expanding at over 250m probably should have used 100gn not 120s? Anyway yew tree tlr seem very deadly to me

 

[Selous]

I’d say the reverse? I gave up on Barnes ttsx as I had problems expanding at over 250m probably should have used 100gn not 120s? Anyway yew tree tlr seem very deadly to me

Interesting, might be a difference in calibre as I am talking about .308 and 7mm and I suspect (but could be wrong) you are talking about 6.5mm. What I do see with the TTSX that leads me to my conclusion is a larger entrance wound whereas the TLR had a pinhole entrance with signs of fragmentation occurring deeper in the wound channel. What do you think your terminal velocity was at 250m. A mate uses the 100g TTSX @3300fps ish and has no issues way out there! In fact the opposite where close in the exit wounds are small suggesting the petals have been shed but at longer ranges the exit wounds get bigger, presumably because the petals are staying attached. Even with the small exit wounds the deer die very quickly!

 

[Heym SR20]

I came to say that, all the discussion so far is anecdotal. It would be better to do a meta report, compiling all our small samples into an overall study. I would be happy to submit my bag return data to a organisation or individual willing to do this.

My experience with copper is extremely limited, two beasts with Sako Powerhead Blade .270”. Spilt the hearts and they each ran on <30 yards. Very typical shot reaction.

To be frank most of the studies have been done already. The like Forest England and Forestry Scotland did sample sizes of several hundred deer shot with their existing lead ammunition, and then a similar sized sample with monolithic non toxic ammo. The biggest variability wasn’t the ammunition it was the individuals the rifle. Those who got runners with lead, still got runners with non toxic.

Bullet manufacturers do extensive research before launching a product. Again many many deer are shot.

Do we need yet more studies, probably not.

 

[Dave_45]

To be frank most of the studies have been done already. The like Forest England and Forestry Scotland did sample sizes of several hundred deer shot with their existing lead ammunition, and then a similar sized sample with monolithic non toxic ammo. The biggest variability wasn’t the ammunition it was the individuals the rifle. Those who got runners with lead, still got runners with non toxic.

Bullet manufacturers do extensive research before launching a product. Again many many deer are shot.

Do we need yet more studies, probably not.

Indeed


The work has been done , non toxic work very well.

Attitudes need to adjust along with some Education.

 

[Utectok]

Interesting, might be a difference in calibre as I am talking about .308 and 7mm and I suspect (but could be wrong) you are talking about 6.5mm. What I do see with the TTSX that leads me to my conclusion is a larger entrance wound whereas the TLR had a pinhole entrance with signs of fragmentation occurring deeper in the wound channel. What do you think your terminal velocity was at 250m. A mate uses the 100g TTSX @3300fps ish and has no issues way out there! In fact the opposite where close in the exit wounds are small suggesting the petals have been shed but at longer ranges the exit wounds get bigger, presumably because the petals are staying attached. Even with the small exit wounds the deer die very quickly!

Yeah 6.5 don’t get me wrong ttsx is a great bullet. I would have stuck with them and gone for 100gn at a slightly fast speed and I’m sure they would work fine. But the problems of availability combined with the easy to achieve acuracy of the tlr swayed me. I think on balance the tlr out of my rifle is better terminally than the ttsx but both good im sure.

 

[Danny Fireblade]

So far every deer I have shot with 130gn TTSX I have collected, and I’m talking in the hundreds and not double figures.
I’m pushing them at 3100fps and out to 350m.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Shot 12 hinds this week and a button stag oops with yew tree tlr out of a 6.5x55 stalker was impressed with the performance. I’d say home loads a lot of factory is pretty poor.
Overall I’ve shot probably 250plus deer with yew tree tlr and there better than any lead I’ve shot

I'd disagree with they're better. Whilst they are a cracking bullet, they're that unpredictable I stopped using them. I found on a pretty regular basis that the large petals would pierce the diaphragm and ultimately split the stomach. I tried altering shot placement however could never get it right unless head/neck shot. They certainly put deer down on the spot and expand out to a good range but it's that unpredictability that's put me off them.

On the flip side, my usual 6mm + 6.5mm sierra TGK are 99 percent predictable. I had a piece of jacket go through the diaphragm a couple of days ago and again spill green inside the carcass but noway near as frequently at the TLR. They still give a good exit out to 400+ and usually drop things on the spot.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Not my experience at all. My impression is that the TTSX at an appropriately high impact velocity expand very quickly indeed. The Yew Tree TLR slightly less quickly

I can only speak from my own experience with Winchester Copper Impact (.243 and .308), Nosler Etip (6.5 and .308) Hornady CX (.243 and 6.5) and Geco Zero (.308). I haven't used TTSX, they get great reviews and I am sure they are excellent.

I'd be very keen to see the exit hole of an example where the bullet entered between ribs, only passed through lungs and exited between ribs - as per my hypothetical example?

Of course, it would be impossible to demonstrate the actual expansion of the bullet as it would be somewhere in distant turf and totally unrecoverable - would it not?.

 

[Selous]

I can only speak from my own experience with Winchester Copper Impact (.243 and .308), Nosler Etip (6.5 and .308) Hornady CX (.243 and 6.5) and Geco Zero (.308). I haven't used TTSX, they get great reviews and I am sure they are excellent.

I'd be very keen to see the exit hole of an example where the bullet entered between ribs, only passed through lungs and exited between ribs - as per my hypothetical example?

Of course, it would be impossible to demonstrate the actual expansion of the bullet as it would be somewhere in distant turf and totally unrecoverable - would it not?.

Yes it would be difficult to recover the bullet. I am 20 years in and have never recovered a TTSX from a deer! I’m not convinced that you need to hit bone in order to get expansion. Perhaps a test target of lflank muscle then ung tissue followed by a rib cage and board would be worthwhile? I’ll have a think….