Lead update.

[Smellydog]

Look, if I put a white coat on and feed my dog a large amount of salt every day it will quite quickly kill it. That done I can suggest we need to ban salt as it kills dogs. But....where is the evidence? There are no dogs found dead due to salt poisoning.
There are no birds being found from lead poisoning.
There are birds found dead to many other means but not lead. I can take all of you to an old lead mine silt bed and find it full of breeding waterfowl and amphibians.
It's a croc. End of.

 

[Liveonce]

banning lead shot for clay shooting is just to stop it being used on live quarry, yet labels acceptable on rifle ammunition. Then olympic athletes can carry on using lead shot. it’s all about making sure commercial game shoots have a market for the shot game. Yet how much damage to the environment does releasing millions of non native game birds do?

 

[Pellet Pinger]

If you saw no ill effects in those same swans nesting year after year and producing healthy cygnets than I guess they had no access to the lead shot or it was not a sized lead shot that they would select to eat as grit. If swans eat lead shot they will certainly suffer lead poisoning as per the evidence from many research studies.

What chance have we got if thats BASC’s attitude? Coming up with your own conclusions and dismissing the possibility that the swans could exist in that type of scenario without harm and reverting to pages from a charity namely the Swan Sanctuary.

Lead Poisoning in Swans - The Swan Sanctuary

Numbers of swans treated for lead poisoning Currently out of a yearly throughput of 3000 Mute swans we treat about 6 per month (around 72 per year) for

www.theswansanctuary.org.uk

Has anyone read this, the most unscientific thing i have read in ages, theres no laboratory studies, birds are diagnosed without actual testing of lead content in the blood and organs, spurious percentages etc.
Its akin to asking for evidence on fox persecution from a fox rescue center run by blue haired vegans!

Im pretty disgusted you should use sources such as this to make a point @Conor O'Gorman

 

[Whitefront]

Effects of lead on wildlife and wildfowl - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust

www.gwct.org.uk

The scientific sources are all listed at the end, under "References".

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

What chance have we got if thats BASC’s attitude? Coming up with your own conclusions and dismissing the possibility that the swans could exist in that type of scenario without harm and reverting to pages from a charity namely the Swan Sanctuary.

Lead Poisoning in Swans - The Swan Sanctuary

Numbers of swans treated for lead poisoning Currently out of a yearly throughput of 3000 Mute swans we treat about 6 per month (around 72 per year) for

www.theswansanctuary.org.uk

Has anyone read this, the most unscientific thing i have read in ages, theres no laboratory studies, birds are diagnosed without actual testing of lead content in the blood and organs, spurious percentages etc.
Its akin to asking for evidence on fox persecution from a fox rescue center run by blue haired vegans!

Im pretty disgusted you should use sources such as this to make a point @Conor O'Gorman

I think the point being insinuated by @finnbear270 was that swans could eat lead shot with no ill effects using an example of swans nesting near the Chester lead shot tower when he fished there as a young lad - whilst the evidence for decades is that if swans eat lead shot they will certainly suffer lead poisoning.

If you trust @finnbear270 assertions from memories as a lad and don't trust the decades of direct experience of the volunteers of the Swan Sanctuary charity in treating swans suffering obvious lead poisoning then here is a video from WWT.



If you don't trust that here is a paper from WWT:

Higher risk to swans from lead poisoning

The health of swans in Britain is being affected by lead poisoning at lower doses than previously recognised, suggests new research by the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust (WWT) and the University of Exeter. The study investigated levels of lead in the bloodstream and found they were related to reduced...

www.wwt.org.uk

If you don't trust that here is an article from the British Ornithological Union:

Mute Swans and lead poisoning - British Ornithologists' Union

Mute Swan numbers recovered after anglers lead use was restricted

bou.org.uk

If you don't trust that here is a research paper from 1994:

A review of lead poisoning in swans

Nearly 10,000 swans of six species or subspecies from 14 countries have died from poisoning caused by lead that originated from ingestion of fishing w…

www.sciencedirect.com

Nearly 10,000 swans of six species or subspecies from 14 countries have died from poisoning caused by lead that originated from ingestion of fishing weights, shotgun pellets (shot), or contaminated vegetation or sediments associated with mining and smelting wastes. Lead contamination in mute swans in England caused local population declines during the late 1970s and 1980s. More tundra swans died from lead poisoning than any other species. The extreme record involved an estimated 7200 tundra swans that died over five winters at one locality in North Carolina. The recent legislation to ban lead fishing weights in most of England and Wales and recent replacement of lead shot with steel shot for waterfowl hunting in the United States and a few areas of Europe, including Denmark, are expected to reduce the incidence of lead poisoning in swans.

If you don't trust that here is a research paper from 1990 for lead shot poisoning in swans in Japan:

Lead poisoning in swans in Japan

We investigated the occurrence, source and exposure time of lead poisoning in whooper swans (Cygnus cygnus cygnus) and Bewick's swans (Cygnus columbia…

www.sciencedirect.com

I could go on, and you might reply to let us know your thoughts with all the above in mind.

 

[RJD]

Any steel or bismuth marked shotgun cases and shotgun reloading equipment for sale?

 

[Apthorpe]

There are hundreds of studies worldwide, including the UK, evidencing birds of various species eating lead shot.

Those are overwhelmingly related to raptors eating carrion or wildfowl dabbling (a problem whuch has already been solved in the UK thrpugh legislation.). What birds do or don't do in other countries is almost entirely irrelevant to the UK, because they are different populations in different environments. To claim otherwise would be scientifically spurious.
How many of those hundreds of studies show on a significant scale in the UK A) the presence of lead shot in the grit wild birds are using AND B) that wild birds are actually consuming this grit? I have made a considerable effort to read or at least skim every paper put forward by antis and to my knowledge there is no solid evidence of this happening.

I'm still at a loss to understand why BASC in defending shooters' interests is persistently making antis' arguments? You're supposed to be making our case, not campaigning against it. I get the distinct impression that you actually believe that there is a sound scientific basis for stopping using it. BASC seems to have completely abandoned any effort to point out that the necessary conditions, scientifically at present, do not exist to justify a ban.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Those are overwhelmingly related to raptors eating carrion or wildfowl dabbling (a problem whuch has already been solved in the UK thrpugh legislation.). What birds do or don't do in other countries is almost entirely irrelevant to the UK, because they are different populations in different environments. To claim otherwise would be scientifically spurious.
How many of those hundreds of studies show on a significant scale in the UK A) the presence of lead shot in the grit wild birds are using AND B) that wild birds are actually consuming this grit? I have made a considerable effort to read or at least skim every paper put forward by antis and to my knowledge there is no solid evidence of this happening.

I'm still at a loss to understand why BASC in defending shooters' interests is persistently making antis' arguments? You're supposed to be making our case, not campaigning against it. I get the distinct impression that you actually believe that there is a sound scientific basis for stopping using it. BASC seems to have completely abandoned any effort to point out that the necessary conditions, scientifically at present, do not exist to justify a ban.

Almost five years ago the UK shooting organisations announced that they accepted that evidence and agreed there was a need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. Which shooting organisation (s) are you a member of?

 

[jall55]

Almost five years ago the UK shooting organisations announced that they accepted that evidence and agreed there was a need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. Which shooting organisation (s) are you a member of?

Did they ask the members thoughts at that juncture Conor ?

 

[countrryboy]

Almost five years ago the UK shooting organisations announced that they accepted that evidence and agreed there was a need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. Which shooting organisation (s) are you a member of?

U meam basc tricked them into it.

Is that the same letter that completely blindsided the gun/cartridge sellers amd manufacters despite them being allegedly 'extensively consulted'


Not all the uk orgs signed it by the way.

 

[Smellydog]

Reading this one could be mistaken that the main shooting association is an arse licking group for anyone objecting to shooting!

 

[countrryboy]

Really there is no doubt for waterfowl it can be a major issue.
But and as apthrope says has pretty much been solved by the present uk regs.
Probably more so in scotland than england.
As the lead ban is habitat dependant rather than species.
If u had a pheasnt drive over a pond/wetland habitat by rights in scotland u should be on non toxic no matter wot wether shooting pheasant or duck.
In emgland i believe u could still shoot the pheasants with lead even thou falling shot could still be available to wildfowl.

Just because the pellets are all found in the gizzard dont assume theyve taken them on as grit.
If they have ate them mistakenly as food they will also end up lodged there, i imagine too large to pass out of it.

Theyre really does need to be some uk studies done showing birds are actively ingesting lead shot.
The legislation has came in far far too early when there is no real proof there is even a problem.
Esp with some of the big commercial outfits now shooting many days a week and a lot of shots per day/drive.
With the life span of most birds and the amount of lead shot beong shot if there was a problem it should be showing up locally around these big commercial shoots.
Yet there is no antcedontal evidence off this at all.

So much for no science no change.

 

[Mungo]

The HSE lead ammunition review that started in 2021 considered the outdoor recreational use of all lead ammunition. In summary, the reason for the review was lead ammunition being caught up with other hazardous substances at that time under post-Brexit regulations called UK REACH to ensure continued trade between UK and EU on chemicals. The first HSE consultation started off mirroring the same lead ammunition restriction proposals that were being made in the EU which covered a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets, lead shot and lead rifle ammunition.

Since the review started in 2021 BASC has argued against all the proposals for various reasons during a call for evidence and two consultations. The final HSE consultation was in December 2023 and BASC stated the following on rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting:

The HSE has proposed no restriction “at this time” on the placing on the market or use of lead bullets for live quarry shooting. The HSE has been unable to sufficiently quantify the benefits of restricting this use and has not been able to explicitly demonstrate the proportionality of a restriction. Therefore, no restriction should be made or proposed.

The detailed arguments are here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

The outcome is outlined here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.

basc.org.uk

I don’t understand why they’re going ahead restricting the use of lead in .243 and above?

This makes no sense at all.

 

[Liveonce]

it also makes no sense to ban lead shot for clay pigeon shooting at cpsa affiliated and registered grounds.

 

[Woodenbeam]

Almost five years ago the UK shooting organisations announced that they accepted that evidence and agreed there was a need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. Which shooting organisation (s) are you a member of?

Having just re read the ‘joint statements?’ from BASC in 2020 it still reads to me as an attempt to justify large commercial shoots by a ‘forward thinking organisation’………lead free game into the market place bla bla bla……….not a case of we accept the evidence as you now state Conor.
All that has happened is you’ve highlighted the fact lead isn't the friendliest substance on the planet and now it’s gone from shotgun cartridges on live game to everything needs to be banned. No shite Sherlock, Gold Star award for that one.
In an ideal world yes I’d use something else (until no doubt that would also be banned…….) but it’s not an ideal world.
I’m reckoning a lot more people suffer from alcohol poisoning and more birds from impact with wind turbines than anything to do with lead but no hum.
Yes lead is poisonous but so are a lot of others things - at least it’s a natural product as opposed to synthetic manufactured product. It always bemused me that the plastic wad wasn’t used as a sacrificial goat, that switch was (for me) an easy one to make & one I couldn’t see any logical reason not to. The lead issue though is one I’m not keen to stomach & one I think the shooting organisations should be fighting tooth & nail.

 

[Apthorpe]

Almost five years ago the UK shooting organisations announced that they accepted that evidence

Which was a complete reversal of BASC's prior, correct position that the available evidence did not merit a ban on lead. There is no solid evidence of British birds outside wetlands being poisoned by mistaking lead for grit. No such paper has been presented throughout this debate to the best of my knowledge and you have failed to produce one either. All the antis do is obfuscate, and pretend it doesnt matter whether birds really are or arent being poisoned.. What you should be doing is helping shooters, not joining in with antis' misleading propaganda. It's madness for a shooting organisation to ignore the state of the evidence and then campaign against its own membership and its own previpus position.
In 2016, it was correct not to prevent the ise of lead. Three years later, there was no substantial new evidence to justify the U turn. This is a BASC PR stunt gone spectacularly wrong.

and agreed there was a need to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

This is not consistent with your lately adopted pose of pretending that BASC has consistently opposed a lead ban. It hasn't, and you've betrayed the interests of your members for no compensatory advantage whatsoever.

Which shooting organisation (s) are you a member of?

BASC.

 

[Pellet Pinger]

I think the point being insinuated by @finnbear270 was that swans could eat lead shot with no ill effects using an example of swans nesting near the Chester lead shot tower when he fished there as a young lad - whilst the evidence for decades is that if swans eat lead shot they will certainly suffer lead poisoning.

If you trust @finnbear270 assertions from memories as a lad and don't trust the decades of direct experience of the volunteers of the Swan Sanctuary charity in treating swans suffering obvious lead poisoning then here is a video from WWT.



If you don't trust that here is a paper from WWT:

Higher risk to swans from lead poisoning

The health of swans in Britain is being affected by lead poisoning at lower doses than previously recognised, suggests new research by the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust (WWT) and the University of Exeter. The study investigated levels of lead in the bloodstream and found they were related to reduced...

www.wwt.org.uk

If you don't trust that here is an article from the British Ornithological Union:

Mute Swans and lead poisoning - British Ornithologists' Union

Mute Swan numbers recovered after anglers lead use was restricted

bou.org.uk

If you don't trust that here is a research paper from 1994:

A review of lead poisoning in swans

Nearly 10,000 swans of six species or subspecies from 14 countries have died from poisoning caused by lead that originated from ingestion of fishing w…

www.sciencedirect.com

Nearly 10,000 swans of six species or subspecies from 14 countries have died from poisoning caused by lead that originated from ingestion of fishing weights, shotgun pellets (shot), or contaminated vegetation or sediments associated with mining and smelting wastes. Lead contamination in mute swans in England caused local population declines during the late 1970s and 1980s. More tundra swans died from lead poisoning than any other species. The extreme record involved an estimated 7200 tundra swans that died over five winters at one locality in North Carolina. The recent legislation to ban lead fishing weights in most of England and Wales and recent replacement of lead shot with steel shot for waterfowl hunting in the United States and a few areas of Europe, including Denmark, are expected to reduce the incidence of lead poisoning in swans.

If you don't trust that here is a research paper from 1990 for lead shot poisoning in swans in Japan:

Lead poisoning in swans in Japan

We investigated the occurrence, source and exposure time of lead poisoning in whooper swans (Cygnus cygnus cygnus) and Bewick's swans (Cygnus columbia…

www.sciencedirect.com

I could go on, and you might reply to let us know your thoughts with all the above in mind.

Firstly, what happens in Japan or anywhere else is not justifiable as evidence to ban lead in the UK, gun ownership, environment, bird population/concentration etc are completely different and if you are happy to use studies from other countries to suit your agenda then you really are selling UK shooting down the river.
Regarding your response to finnbear270 i think you are guilty of putting words in his mouth, at no point did he mention birds eating lead, just an observation that theres always been a population there. You dont seem to accept thats possible without them eating lead, a foregone conclusion that if theres a high concentration of shot the birds must eat it.
I stand by my original comment, what chance do we have if the so called voice of our sport is going to continuously copy and paste links to lead poisoning from here, there and everywhere and a bunch of volunteers with zero scientific credibility. Its as if you are doing the antis job for them and completely ignoring the concerns of the people you are supposed to be representing.

 

[finnbear270]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/cygnets-rescue-bid-takes-dive-5297100&ved=2ahUKEwiJ283N8s6KAxUQT0EAHQtFI3cQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3nyyWzL6Kz_C9NYyMhq-If

Reading the last few lines, I suspect it may have been early instances of bird flu.
I used to live a few hundred yards from Jackie Leech, & Dr Leech her husband, was my doctor for a while.

 

[Liveonce]

. This is a BASC PR stunt gone spectacularly wrong.

Has it gone spectacularly wrong? Depends on your agenda, the five year voluntary transition for live quarry was a total disaster, all the time lead shot was available it was going to be used, what was needed was a law banning lead shot.

Yes there may be some unwanted consequences, but we will fight to mitigate them, airgun pellets, .22lr, small calibre rifles, only pain was the inclusion of .243 but not given up on that yet, we can spend members money on fighting that, but not do likewise to fight to keep lead shot for clay shooting

 

[Twodogs]

I don’t understand why they’re going ahead restricting the use of lead in .243 and above?

This makes no sense at all.

Nobody understands it, because there is no logic or evidence in the recommendation, but let’s not let that interfere with politics.