moderator change

[Orion]

That is a 1 for 1 you've done. Did you send back the ticket to get the old 22 taking off table 1?

Don't think you'll find it is - he didn't apply on Form 101 and get his FAC varied - so essentially he's done an 'off ticket' swap and committed an offence in the process.

 

[bobjs]

I think this is the correct way it should happen.

1, the moderator on your ticket MUST be sold on to the new person/disposed of to a rfd for disposal is U/S etc.

2, then you HAVE to send your certificate in for the licence department to have the permission written on it to allow you to purchase a new Moderator, called a 1 for 1 variation,

thats the law.

simples.

if you have done it any other way than this its incorrect.

 

[ELRIG]

Englandshire must be a nightmare for firearms!!!. this is what we do.
If you wish to replace an existing firearm (this is called a one for one variation), no fee is required provided the application is submitted within 7 days of the disposal of the existing firearm. The application form, your certificate and proof of disposal of the firearm you wish to replace should be submitted directly to Firearms Administration. In some cases further enquiry may be necessary. If, however, it is evident that the replacement firearm is of the same calibre and type as the firearm disposed of, and that it will be used for the same purpose on the same land as previously, the application may be processed without being allocated for enquiry.

then your ticket comes back with the old firearm taken off table 1 and you still have the authorization to hold the calibre and your new firearm is put in table 1

 

[Orion]

Englandshire must be a nightmare for firearms!!!. this is what we do.
If you wish to replace an existing firearm (this is called a one for one variation), no fee is required provided the application is submitted within 7 days of the disposal of the existing firearm. The application form, your certificate and proof of disposal of the firearm you wish to replace should be submitted directly to Firearms Administration. In some cases further enquiry may be necessary. If, however, it is evident that the replacement firearm is of the same calibre and type as the firearm disposed of, and that it will be used for the same purpose on the same land as previously, the application may be processed without being allocated for enquiry.

then your ticket comes back with the old firearm taken off table 1 and you still have the authorization to hold the calibre and your new firearm is put in table 1

No nightmare here - that's pretty much what happens all over I think. But it's not what Rake Aboot said he did.

 

[ELRIG]

i think he's maybe not told the full story on how he notifyed the firearms department.

 

[Orion]

i think he's maybe not told the full story on how he notifyed the firearms department.

I don't think it's about notifying them - it's more that he didn't actually get a 1-for-1 variation in the first place.

I wanted a new 22. I was advised that I could sell the old one to an RFD, then buy a new one without having to get a 1 for 1 variation. The variation was only required if I wanted to keep the old 22 while I bought the new one and added it to my FAC.

 

[Rake Aboot]

i think he's maybe not told the full story on how he notifyed the firearms department.

Regards what ?

The moderator was bought off ticket and entered onto my FAC by my local rfd,,ON ADVISE OF L&B. Simple, no full story lacking there.

I have not bought the 22 yet, but spoke to L&B 2 weeks ago, face to face at the desk, and was advised that a 1 to 1 was required IF I kept my 22, and wanted to buy the new one before getting rid of the old one. Other than that. I was told I could sell the old one to the shop,and inform L&B (easy so far, any queries?)
and then I could buy the new one with the old one being off my ticket. (once you have sold a rifle if is off your ticket, hence you have a vacant slot)
You can then inform licensing about the transfer

Must just be easier up here eh?

 

[Orion]

I have not bought the 22 yet, but spoke to L&B 2 weeks ago, face to face at the desk, and was advised that a 1 to 1 was required IF I kept my 22, and wanted to buy the new one before getting rid of the old one. Other than that. I was told I could sell the old one to the shop,and inform L&B (easy so far, any queries?)

Nope, no queries so far - it's exactly what we would all expect to do.

and then I could buy the new one with the old one being off my ticket. (once you have sold a rifle if is off your ticket, hence you have a vacant slot)
You can then inform licensing about the transfer

Must just be easier up here eh?

Yup, a lot easier to get yourself in a whole heap of trouble by the sounds of it. Have a read of the HO Guidance extract I posted at #20, maybe even do a search on the stated case in the Queen's Bench Divisional Court if you don't believe what the Home Office say, and ask yourself what

A variation is always necessary if a
certificate holder wishes to change one of the
firearms, even if they wish to purchase one
identical to the one they are selling

is telling you.

Also, how is the seller going to transfer the firearm to you as you won't have an entry in the 'purchase or acquire' section on your FAC - and hopefully that will stop you from making a big mistake. Whoever is giving out this duff info at L&B needs putting straight - fast.

 

[jewfish]

many thanks for everybody who has replyed i think i better ring my f/o i know every county is differant and have differant laws so i will find out
thanks guys as for the mod i think ill keep my one for now!!

 

[Orion]

i know every county is differant and have differant laws

Eh? Last time I looked the Firearms Acts, (laws if you want), applied to the whole of mainland UK and not on a county-by-county basis.

Some FLD managers might wish they had that power in place - some already act as if they do - but despite their questionable ability to 'interpret' certain aspects of the administration of the Act(s) as they appear to deem fit, they must adhere to the legislation where it is laid down. This is particulary applicable where a case has already been before the courts and a definative judgement made that can later be referred to. So the requirement for a one-for-one variation to be made, even when identical firearms are involved, is not open to local 'interpretation', it must be done otherwise you commit an offence.

 

[8x57]

In a similar vein two chaps of my acquaintance decided to simply exchange pistols a few years back, and to inform the Chief Constable of the exchange after the event. They were invited into to meet the Deputy Chief Constable to suggest reasons why he should not simply revoke their certificates. They were not offered coffee at the meeting.

 

[Rake Aboot]

What has an off ticket exchange got to do with this??

Sell a gun, inform licensing, have slot free, buy gun, inform licensing, have slot filled, no 1 for 1 variation.

 

[DL]

What has an off ticket exchange got to do with this??

Sell a gun, inform licensing, have slot free, buy gun, inform licensing, have slot filled, no 1 for 1 variation.

I prefer your way of doing things, but I can't see other regions jumping on the band wagon. On the positve side of things, my last one for one took a day to turn around.

 

[Orion]

What has an off ticket exchange got to do with this??

Sell a gun, inform licensing, have slot free, buy gun, inform licensing, have slot filled, no 1 for 1 variation.

Not a problem, just do what the admin drone at L&B advised you to do - I'm sure they'll put their job and pension on the line and back up what they've told you when it all goes wrong. And hopefully you won't have your FAC revoked.

After all it can't be me, others on here, the Home Office and The Queen's Bench Divisional Court that have the right idea could it?

 

[Crow Man]

What has an off ticket exchange got to do with this??

Sell a gun, inform licensing, have slot free, buy gun, inform licensing, have slot filled, no 1 for 1 variation.

Maybe L&B should offer this up to the Home Office as an amendment to thr Firearms Act. I would not risk my FAC, fine and possible custodial sentence for something that is FREE, takes ten mins to fill out the paperwork and in most cases is processed in a few days.
As Orion said, do you really think the person who told you face to face will back you up if things go horribly wrong?

 

[Julie]

I am in L&B and have a lot of dealings re mod changes and rifle exchange, and L&B do follow the firearms acts to the letter, and insist on a 1 for 1 variation.
I have experienced two ways (both legal)!

1. Dispose of mod/gun (Surrender, sell gift etc) – Form 101 within 7 days, then receive a new FAC with vacant slots to acquire. (classic 1 for 1)
2. Form 101 requesting a new condition which allows for the acquisition of a new mod/gun upon disposal of the first – This way one doesn’t end up without a gun/mod whilst the forms and FAC is being processed (as in 1) above

Rake About – Did you speak to your FLO, or Fettes about this, or your local police station? If the latter it may be that the person to whom you spoke does not actually know and is getting confused with Shotguns (where you can) or assuming a common sense approach (i.e. not legal).


The law on 1 for 1 variations is clear in the firearms act 1968 clause 3 2) which is clarified explicitly (note 5) in the firearms amendment act 1997 schedule 2


[A firearm certificate gives specific authority for a particular firearm by reference to name, type calibre and serial number; accordingly, variation of a firearm certificate is required prior to a certificate holder changing the firearm in his possession, and shown in the certificate, for one of the same type and calibre (Wilson v Coombe [1989] 1 WLR 78, 88 Cr App Rep 322).]

And is included as 10.51 in the home office guidance to police

There is no doubt, or flexibility in this – if anyone didn’t follow the firearms act it is an offence

Julie

 

[8x57]

What has an off ticket exchange got to do with this??

Sell a gun, inform licensing, have slot free, buy gun, inform licensing, have slot filled, no 1 for 1 variation.

Is this some sort of a wind up - you don't have a free slot your way. You get the slot either by applying for a 1for 1 or by paying for an additional slot.

 

[BunnyDoom]

guys just checked my ticket just says moderator !! nothing else no makers names or numbers! come to think of it a while ago i sold my 308 and brought another and told them in writing i have not had a visit from oll plod saying i cannot!! surely i could sell and buy another
cheers chris.

Depends on your shop, but legally as there's no serial number or make on a moderator most shops and FEO's turn a blind eye to it as it's just pointless paperwork - I could sell my "T12" as a "SAK" and there's nothing to stop me doing it as there's no way of proving what type of moderator it is (no serial number, make, or calibre printed on either!).

If it's a full bore moderator some shops will sell you one without a variation as long as you simply have "moderator" on your ticket and you hand in your current one. Not sure of the legalities of this though as seems to depend on your particular issuing authorities interpretation of the law.

I personally buy my mods when I see them, then apply for the 1-for-1 when I'm doing a major variation - you might be asked for proof of purchase though, in which case you'll either have to tell your FEO that you bought it for an air rifle but now wish to put it on your rifle (anf have proof of purchase), or go back to the shop you got it from and ask them to write it up as a section 1 moderator sale when you get your variation.

 

[Julie]

Depends on your shop, but legally as there's no serial number or make on a moderator most shops and FEO's turn a blind eye to it as it's just pointless paperwork - I could sell my "T12" as a "SAK" and there's nothing to stop me doing it as there's no way of proving what type of moderator it is (no serial number, make, or calibre printed on either!).

If it's a full bore moderator some shops will sell you one without a variation as long as you simply have "moderator" on your ticket and you hand in your current one. Not sure of the legalities of this though as seems to depend on your particular issuing authorities interpretation of the law.

I personally buy my mods when I see them, then apply for the 1-for-1 when I'm doing a major variation - you might be asked for proof of purchase though, in which case you'll either have to tell your FEO that you bought it for an air rifle but now wish to put it on your rifle (anf have proof of purchase), or go back to the shop you got it from and ask them to write it up as a section 1 moderator sale when you get your variation.

OK playing devil’s advocate here, You can’t prove it’s a new moderator – so the police [a well informed FLO for example] examines the mod (a T8 say), it has markings showing the thread type etc. – these were only introduced in 2009, (prior to this the markings were diferent) yet you bought yours in 2007 – when the internals were different as well! So they check your purchase from the dealer, where it is tracked through to a delivery of a number of PES 12 mods, all from JMS arms, who have only supplied PES and MAE mods.

Police feel this is somewhat fishy so send the MOD off for examination, internal exam shows it was clearly made to the new design in 2011.
You are questioned (no coffee at that interview) and charged with:

1. Possession of a section 1 firearm without a certificate (your new mod)
2. Distributing section 1 firearms to persons unknown (Your old mod)

(Armed of course with your publishing the fact that you just swapped it ‘cos no one would know)

Just because your FAC doesn’t state exact details doesn’t mean it isn’t traceable.

The law may be inconvenient, but it is clear in this case

Just saying………

Julie

 

[Rake Aboot]

I am in L&B and have a lot of dealings re mod changes and rifle exchange, and L&B do follow the firearms acts to the letter, and insist on a 1 for 1 variation.
I have experienced two ways (both legal)!

1. Dispose of mod/gun (Surrender, sell gift etc) – Form 101 within 7 days, then receive a new FAC with vacant slots to acquire. (classic 1 for 1)
2. Form 101 requesting a new condition which allows for the acquisition of a new mod/gun upon disposal of the first – This way one doesn’t end up without a gun/mod whilst the forms and FAC is being processed (as in 1) above

Rake About – Did you speak to your FLO, or Fettes about this, or your local police station? If the latter it may be that the person to whom you spoke does not actually know and is getting confused with Shotguns (where you can) or assuming a common sense approach (i.e. not legal).


The law on 1 for 1 variations is clear in the firearms act 1968 clause 3 2) which is clarified explicitly (note 5) in the firearms amendment act 1997 schedule 2


[A firearm certificate gives specific authority for a particular firearm by reference to name, type calibre and serial number; accordingly, variation of a firearm certificate is required prior to a certificate holder changing the firearm in his possession, and shown in the certificate, for one of the same type and calibre (Wilson v Coombe [1989] 1 WLR 78, 88 Cr App Rep 322).]

And is included as 10.51 in the home office guidance to police

There is no doubt, or flexibility in this – if anyone didn’t follow the firearms act it is an offence

Julie

That clears that up then, Thanks

L&B have always been great and easy to deal with,, I have no reason to believe that will change and they will keep me right.

I tend to take my advise on FAC matters from them direct at Fettes though, not from a forum.