Open or closed

[MarkL]

What’s the need for open and closed tickets?

When I first got my ticket I had permission on 2-3 farms and my ticket was closed.
I soon gained other permissions and was ringing the firearms department every month or so to add them. I asked for it to be opened but was told no.
My argument was one farm I have is bordered on one side by a caravan site. So I’m deemed safe enough not to get giddy and shoot towards the caravan park ? But I’m not safe enough to assess the lad on “ Mr Smiths “ farm ?
Surely safe is safe
I’m not going to take an unsafe shot on my approved land nor would I take an unsafe shot on new permission.
The ticket was soon opened (after about 6months)
I think they got fed up of me ringing

 

[weblyish]

But surely it's a good thing since if the chief commissioner of police for your area has approved the land you shoot on for the calibre you shoot then he takes the responsibility if that causes any issues?

Or have I misunderstood something.....?

 

[timbrayford]

But surely it's a good thing since if the chief commissioner of police for your area has approved the land you shoot on for the calibre you shoot then he takes the responsibility if that causes any issues?

Or have I misunderstood something.....?

Yes.
Responsibility for a safe shot remains solely with the shooter, land approvals by the police are just one of the irksome quirks of the 1920 Firearms Act.
This is what the Keyham Coroner had to say about police "expertise":-
“There was a serious failure at a national level by the government, Home Office and National College of Policing to implement the recommendation from Lord Cullen’s Report in 1996 arising out of the fatal shootings in Dunblane, to provide training for FEOs and the subsequent recommendation in Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of the Constabulary’s Targeting the Risk Report in 2015 for an accredited training regime for FEOs. The most recent statutory guidance from the Home Office (2021) has failed to include any mention of FEO specific training.”

 

[Tim.243]

What’s the need for open and closed tickets?

When I first got my ticket I had permission on 2-3 farms and my ticket was closed.
I soon gained other permissions and was ringing the firearms department every month or so to add them. I asked for it to be opened but was told no.
My argument was one farm I have is bordered on one side by a caravan site. So I’m deemed safe enough not to get giddy and shoot towards the caravan park ? But I’m not safe enough to assess the lad on “ Mr Smiths “ farm ?
Surely safe is safe
I’m not going to take an unsafe shot on my approved land nor would I take an unsafe shot on new permission.
The ticket was soon opened (after about 6months)
I think they got fed up of me ringing

The compounds are full of crashed cars (many fatal) of people who held a full UK driving licence as they made a mistake/ judgment in their driving and those have consequences.
Every shot has a risk it is how you keep that shot to the very minimum is what counts, personally I don't know anyone one who has not made a mistake when out driving, I repaired crashed cars for a long time and bent a few in my time also

 

[Harry mac]

The "closed" certificate is a police "invention". It only becomes "closed" when conditions are imposed on it.
If they don't impose the condition, all FACs are "open" certificates.
It seems to be something they've just got in the habit of doing.

 

[Jh1986]

I think in some areas we are going to a system of mentored and closed, followed by open.

When you've done enough to lose the mentored condition then it's straight to open.

I think they know they don't have the resources to keep clearing land, and people don't want to be waiting 6 months or more to get some land cleared (and the landowner doesn't want to wait either)

 

[Tim.243]

The "closed" certificate is a police "invention". It only becomes "closed" when conditions are imposed on it.
If they don't impose the condition, all FACs are "open" certificates.
It seems to be something they've just got in the habit of doing.

All FAC's have conditions regardless of being "open or closed"

 

[Harry mac]

Yes, they do, but the "open" or "closed" status is an added condition.

 

[Whitefront]

Police Scotland (and an increasing number of English forces) very sensibly don't do land clearance for firearms (other than perhaps for a single location as part of the the initial good reason test.)

Given this, would an FAC holder who has the standard wording "on land approved by the chief constable for the area where the land is situated ..." on their FAC be in breach of this condition if they used their rifle during a stalking holiday in Scotland ?

 

[VSS]

Police Scotland (and an increasing number of English forces) very sensibly don't do land clearance for firearms (other than perhaps for a single location as part of the the initial good reason test.)

Given this, would an FAC holder who has the standard wording "on land approved by the chief constable for the area where the land is situated ..." on their FAC be in breach of this condition if they used their rifle during a stalking holiday in Scotland ?

No. Because all land in Scotland has been approved.

 

[Tim.243]

Police Scotland (and an increasing number of English forces) very sensibly don't do land clearance for firearms (other than perhaps for a single location as part of the the initial good reason test.)

Given this, would an FAC holder who has the standard wording "on land approved by the chief constable..." on their FAC be in breach of their condition if they used their rifle during a stalking holiday in Scotland ?

The wording on your cert is what you follow in England Wales, a lot of my ground I had cleared for .243 as it was only on their records for .22lr that won't have changed as I shoot it with my .270 on a open ticket.
Check with the person you are going with or is it to late lol

 

[Dalua]

All FAC's have conditions regardless of being "open or closed"

They all. of course, have the statutory conditions, so I guess Harry Mac is referring to discretionary conditions the FLDs add, often with no clear justification in terms of improved public safety.

The wording on your cert is what you follow in England Wales

Is that correct? I'd have thought that discretionary conditions on a UK FAC would apply anywhere in the UK and NI.

 

[Dalua]

.

 

[Whitefront]

No. Because all land in Scotland has been approved.

No, it hasn't. Or do you think the centre of Glasgow is "approved?" More correctly, the system simply doesn't apply there. And it's not just Scotland, a good chunk of England no longer operates land clearance. Yet if you have a so-called closed FAC , the relevant land condition is utter nonsense. So why not just scrap it, as so much of the UK has already done?>

 

[Whitefront]

The wording on your cert is what you follow in England Wales, a lot of my ground I had cleared for .243 as it was only on their records for .22lr that won't have changed as I shoot it with my .270 on a open ticket.
Check with the person you are going with or is it to late lol

Not so. And anyway, an increasing number of English forces have scrapped land clearance in the accepted sense.

 

[Tim.243]

Not so. And anyway, an increasing number of English forces have scrapped land clearance in the accepted sense.

Well if you know that why did you ask the question?

 

[Whitefront]

Well if you know that why did you ask the question?

The conundrum raises the issue of whether the land clearance is becoming meaningless, but - while it still exists, in some forces, -some readers of this forum might unwittingly be at risk of breaching a condition of their FAC. And although I personally have had an open FAC for decades, I do think this whole issue needs to be clarified. If the police wish to make it a problem for certain people, they can, it seems. Far better to expose the land clearance thing as a nonsense and get the whole thing scrapped. But you don't do that by saying, in effect "oh, they won't apply that condition..."

Incidentally, in have in the past I have asked BASC. They said in relation to Scotland etc, the police might well simply ignore the wording if they felt like doing so. So why even impose it as a condition in the first place? To have such a grey area, at the mercy of police interpretation, is not a good position for FAC holders.

 

[Tim.243]

They all. of course, have the statutory conditions, so I guess Harry Mac is referring to discretionary conditions the FLDs add, often with no clear justification in terms of improved public safety.


Is that correct? I'd have thought that discretionary conditions on a UK FAC would apply anywhere in the UK and NI.

I follow the conditions on my FAC, I have always accepted NI as part of the UK with the Union Jack.

 

[Tim.243]

The conundrum raises the issue of whether the land clearance is becoming meaningless, but - while it still exists, in some forces, -some readers of this forum might unwittingly be at risk of breaching a condition of their FAC. And although I personally have had an open FAC for decades, I do think this whole issue needs to be clarified. If the police wish to make it a problem for certain people, they can, it seems. Far better to expose the whole land clearance thing as a n nonsense and get the whole thing scrapped. But you don't do that by saying, in effect "oh, they won't apply that condition..."

Incidentally, in have in the past, asked BASC, and they simply said they don't know! Not a good position for FAC holders to be in.

People have be responsible for themselves in all of their usage of a firearm, the poor excuse of "oh I didn't know"
It runs on the same track as the fundamentals of Backstop Rounds Bolt Seatbelt Using you phone while driving ringing the guide to say you are going to be late as you left your bolt at home.

 

[timbrayford]

All FAC's have conditions regardless of being "open or closed"

They don't have to, additional restrictions on our shooting activities are entirely at the whim of FLDs, there's nothing else in the firearms act that prevents you using a firearm held for one good reason from a.o. lawful purpose.