BASC raises serious concerns over misleading WWT film

[Conor O'Gorman]

Only illegal in eng ( possibly wales too?) to shoot ducks with lead.

But in scotland it can be perfectly legal to shoot ducks with lead shot, as long as shot not landing on wetland.

i dont know the %s of ducks found with lead shot but with many supply chains being nationwide it woyld be hard tp prove where duck was shot.

Not saying it doesnae happen still in eng.

The following paper was published in December 2024:

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

The use of lead shotgun ammunition for shooting wildfowl has been restricted in England since 1999, but surveys finding lead shot in harvested birds s…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[jall55]

The following paper was published in December 2024:

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

The use of lead shotgun ammunition for shooting wildfowl has been restricted in England since 1999, but surveys finding lead shot in harvested birds s…

www.sciencedirect.com

Only skimmed but how can they tell the difference between reared and wild mallard ?

 

[Dunwaters]

Is your comment aimed at BASC, the shooting organisations, or everyone that participates in game shooting in the UK and EU?

Fair question.
We are attempting to market game as a sustainable alternative to farmed meat products, but we are reluctant to accept that if we want to market it as green and clean we need to lose the lead, and sooner rather than later.
The evidence at the moment suggests that the majority of shoots and shooters are still using lead, which just may indicate that the “ voluntary transition “ is not working.
So I m not aiming at BASC specifically, but I am pointing out that the video you posted is not totally inaccurate.
Lead is being placed in the food chain unnecessarily because large commercial shoots have not banned it.
They have banned plastic wads, but they refuse to ban lead probably because it means the end of extreme birds and high peg prices.
So no, my comment is not aimed at all of you, just those of you who think that it’s acceptable to put food containing heavy metal into the food chain and claim that it’s safe, green and sustainable.

 

[Dunwaters]

Dunwater
You have done it yet again - what a load of tosh - "unfit " LMAAO

When you finish LYAO, you might explain my errors.

 

[countrryboy]

The following paper was published in December 2024:

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

The use of lead shotgun ammunition for shooting wildfowl has been restricted in England since 1999, but surveys finding lead shot in harvested birds s…

www.sciencedirect.com

Fair enough.

I did have a quick read throu it.
1 thing i do know it is amazing how often studies find in favour off whos ever is paying for their reseach or confirms there pre concived bias esp in emotive subjects like this.

Basc and others need to go throu any studies like this with a fine tooth comb everything from thier null hypothesis to methodology.
If its going to be used agaibst us it atleast much be valid

I dont shoot in eng so not really sure how well its followed but i would off thought more than 25% would of made the switch.
It does surprise me the number is just so high.

1 thing i will say they seem to sample 100- 150 ducks each year.
And from that there getting regionally differences as well.
They can only be buying a few ducks in each region, not really a massive sample size.
If only buying from 1 or 2 game dealers it could easy only be 1 or 2 shoots supplying them.
Would be pretty easy to skew that if u already had a bias or agenda.

Im not saying it doesnae go on but i dont believe its as high as 75%.

If u do believe lead pellets in food is a big problem its easily sorted.
Game dealers just need to say non toxic only and threaten to fine them or not take there game in future.

Shoots provide shells for the guns.
A shoot i pick up on has went non toxic, it just provides the shells add that on to the price of a bird.
Its in scotland so strictly no legal need to be non toxic, but game deqler wants birds shot with non toxic for his markets. Which is fair enough hes buying them so his rules.
Simple and no need for all this legisaltion.

 

[Rafter]

The surest indicator of a papers findings is to look at who paid for it.

 

[Liveonce]

As I see it, it’s out of our hands now, HSE has completed its work, now up to the Government of today to accept or reject all or part of it, and can probably guess how well that will go. The antis are far better at PR than we are and the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting was basically a complete failure.
BASC may as well come clean and say they want a lead shot ban to ensure commercial game shooting has a future.
Personally I think commercial game shooting has a finite future as to many it is becoming just as untenable to rear millions of game birds just to be living targets as it is to use lead shot to kill them as both impact on the environment.

 

[moeggesit]

Fair question.
We are attempting to market game as a sustainable alternative to farmed meat products, but we are reluctant to accept that if we want to market it as green and clean we need to lose the lead, and sooner rather than later.
The evidence at the moment suggests that the majority of shoots and shooters are still using lead, which just may indicate that the “ voluntary transition “ is not working.
So I m not aiming at BASC specifically, but I am pointing out that the video you posted is not totally inaccurate.
Lead is being placed in the food chain unnecessarily because large commercial shoots have not banned it.
They have banned plastic wads, but they refuse to ban lead probably because it means the end of extreme birds and high peg prices.
So no, my comment is not aimed at all of you, just those of you who think that it’s acceptable to put food containing heavy metal into the food chain and claim that it’s safe, green and sustainable.

How many cases of lead poisoning from eating shot game are you aware of? Examples?

Not suggesting that lead poisoning do not exist, only that it usually stems from handling (sucking) copious amounts of lead or processing lead in an industrial environment.

The remaining lead pipes is a greater risk.

 

[countrryboy]

BASC may as well come clean and say they want a lead shot ban to ensure commercial game shooting has a future.
Personally I think commercial game shooting has a finite future as to many it is becoming just as untenable to rear millions of game birds just to be living targets as it is to use lead shot to kill them as both impact on the environment.

There is absolutely no doubt were in for an absolute shafting.

While i do think it would always likely happen at some point, i do believe Basc's stance and compkete failure on LAG has brought it on far quickier.
Which is a oroblem as the technology for steel shot and bio wads is not 100% there yet.
Another 5+ years would off helped.

The problem shooting has ut wont just be the big commercial shoots that are banned it will be the whole lot.
If they ban releasing birds
Diy syndicates and walk about farm shoots will go too.

If by some miracle they survive rearing pheasants/game farming will become very expensive and even drugs/meducines evwn feed will be a probkem.as not worth spending the mobey to keep licences up to dafe.

Even shoots that manage to shoot a bag without releasibg birds, i'd wager in most cases ur shooting birds released somewhere else.
Very few places nowadays have enough game breeding wild to give a shokrable surplus year on year.

 

[Dunwaters]

How many cases of lead poisoning from eating shot game are you aware of? Examples?

Thats not the point, the point is that lead has been determined to be a toxic heavy metal with no safe limit. It is a known and proven toxin that in the form of lead shot and particles of rifle bullets is consumed by wildlife with deleterious effects.
This has been demonstrated time and time again.

Not suggesting that lead poisoning do not exist, only that it usually stems from handling (sucking) copious amounts of lead or processing lead in an industrial environment.

We, shooters, are the only ones deliberately and knowingly introducing lead into the human food chain, everyone else has stopped.
Thats a fact, game has been purchased from retailers and sampled, the majority of game sampled contained lead, so that video is not as far off the mark as it should be and the game shooting and retail industry is to blame.

The remaining lead pipes is a greater risk.

Pipes again? You forgot the flashing.
Thing is, no one is wrapping meat in lead sheeting and trying to pass it off as a healthy sustainable alternative to intensively farmed meat products. Game retailers are knowingly putting a product contaminated with a toxic heavy metal on supermarket shelves for human consumption. When someone has the temerity to point this out, everyone gets all offended and starts shouting foul.
You can’t have it both ways, if you’re going to promote game as a clean green sustainable alternative you need to get the lead out.
Do it now, do it yourselves and do it voluntarily before you’re forced.
if you need to use lead, eat the game yourself or dispose of it properly as inedible waste.
We really are our own worst enemies sometimes.

 

[Buchan]

As a means of using satire to make a political point there is nothing wrong in the film. It could have been a little more subtle and so better satire. As meat with lead in it is still getting into the food chain, raptors are still persecuted, and high birds* still seen as a good thing, the only surprise is it hasn't happened before.
*Still fascinates me that making a shot at a bird harder is regarded as an, but for deer we try to make the shot as easy as possible.

 

[old 30-06]

timbrayford and Conor O'Gorman, I know that John Swift was given an honorary life membership to the BASC. Surely though it could just as easily be taken back ?

 

[moeggesit]

Thats not the point, the point is that lead has been determined to be a toxic heavy metal with no safe limit. It is a known and proven toxin that in the form of lead shot and particles of rifle bullets is consumed by wildlife with deleterious effects.
This has been demonstrated time and time again.

We, shooters, are the only ones deliberately and knowingly introducing lead into the human food chain, everyone else has stopped.
Thats a fact, game has been purchased from retailers and sampled, the majority of game sampled contained lead, so that video is not as far off the mark as it should be and the game shooting and retail industry is to blame.

Pipes again? You forgot the flashing.
Thing is, no one is wrapping meat in lead sheeting and trying to pass it off as a healthy sustainable alternative to intensively farmed meat products. Game retailers are knowingly putting a product contaminated with a toxic heavy metal on supermarket shelves for human consumption. When someone has the temerity to point this out, everyone gets all offended and starts shouting foul.
You can’t have it both ways, if you’re going to promote game as a clean green sustainable alternative you need to get the lead out.
Do it now, do it yourselves and do it voluntarily before you’re forced.
if you need to use lead, eat the game yourself or dispose of it properly as inedible waste.
We really are our own worst enemies sometimes.

I do continue to eat the meat and certainly won’t lose any sleep over it.

No cases of lead poisoning caused by eating game is exactly the point, centuries of eating lead shot game; if there was an issue there would have been reams of evidence detailing the cases.

 

[steve sxs]

Is that not Packham’s daughter?

I doubt it, with all the lead he's ingested (through Lead pipes, car exhaust, and paint he's licked) probably infertile

 

[timbrayford]

timbrayford and Conor O'Gorman, I know that John Swift was given an honorary life membership to the BASC. Surely though it could just as easily be taken back ?

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted! But it might help BASC rebuild trust with the shooting community if they would throw Swift out in disgrace, as he richly deserves?

 

[Tazz]

Is that not Packham’s daughter?

“Step daughter” he hasn’t managed to produce his own ( Probably a blessing)

 

[Apthorpe]

The following paper was published in December 2024:

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

Spatial and temporal variation in the prevalence of illegal lead shot in reared and wild mallards harvested in England

The use of lead shotgun ammunition for shooting wildfowl has been restricted in England since 1999, but surveys finding lead shot in harvested birds s…

www.sciencedirect.com

Why does this paper appear not to consider the sources of supply of these ducks into the market? It seems very obvious that the birds supplied into the market are unlikely to representative of the birds actually shot. All this sort of stuff tells us is that large commercial shoots (of the type BASC has been structurally championing, incidentally) have been screwing everyone over by perhaps not making sure birds were shot with the right ammunition, as well as shooting more wildfowl than they could eat. I would wager that if the same size sample was taken of birds shot by wildfowlers, you wouldn't have similar results.

1. What actions has BASC taken to inform these anti-shooting "scientists" that they aren't doing their research honestly?
2. What actions has BASC taken to disincentivise commercial shoots from acting unethically?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted! But it might help BASC rebuild trust with the shooting community if they would throw Swift out in disgrace, as he richly deserves?

This is really unsavoury stuff and I wish you would stop banging on about John in posts that I create - your suggestions do not have my support in case of any doubt.

 

[Dunwaters]

I do continue to eat the meat and certainly won’t lose any sleep over it.

No cases of lead poisoning caused by eating game is exactly the point, centuries of eating lead shot game; if there was an issue there would have been reams of evidence detailing the cases.

Eating it yourself knowing the risk and making an informed decision is your choice.
Now try marketing a product that contains a known toxin to the general public as being clean, green and sustainable.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Only skimmed but how can they tell the difference between reared and wild mallard ?

It's to do with the analysis of chemical signatures via a technique called isotope analysis against the greater likelihood of provision of agricultural grains such as corn, rice, or wheat for reared mallard vs wild mallard diet, details in the paper.