An huge own goal by the Shooting Organizations - the lead farce

[jimmer.13]

The best means of reducing that risk to birds in the UK is supporting a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Completely disagree and so do many thousands of others.
Wake up man.
You and your colleagues are selling us all down the river because you have been instructed to admire the emperors new clothes. When actually the rest of us see him as a fool running around bollock naked.

 

[Mardler]

I've been shot three times in my life, twice when ferreting, once pretty badly. The X-ray made my legs look like colanders! I also carried an SSG pellet round for many years till it surfaced and was removed covered in white fibres! All the surface pellets were removed but the deep-seated ones were left where they were and I assume are still there.
I'm now 88 and despite eating shot game all my life, I am still going (relatively) strong. perhaps I'm lead-tolerant!

"Lead-tolerant" - love it.
Can you imagine going to A&E these days with those injuries? You'd have an Armed Respknse Team and Claims Lawyer waiting for you (and maybe a BASC representative )
As we say in Norfolk -"Keep you a goin' my man, do well"

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

437 pheasants over a couple of years compared to how many millions released in that period?
No one is denying that they occasionally pick up lead shot, the evidence is there in black and white.
No where is it saying that lead shot is having a catastrophic effect on wildlife. If it was we would have probably seen it by now given that shooting has been taking place for a year or two.
The argument for banning lead shot is weak and spurious and everyone in the field sports community knows it.
Those that are hanging their hats in your cloakroom are going to sorely disappointed when they come to collect them, only to be told they’ve been nicked.

Indeed, and the results were remarkably consistent across years and so many places so if one considers the numbers of pheasants about at the start of the shooting season, let's say 40 million, and an evidenced 3% lead shot incidence then a conservative estimate would be over 1 million pheasants impacted annually. Remember also, that each lead shot study tends to focus on one species - but consider that the lead shot being scattered over any given piece of land is being ingested by lots of bird species at the same time, all of the time. This is an animal welfare and conservation issue that we are still understanding the scale of. It is your choice not to act on this as regards the voluntary transition, but attempting to undermine myself, or the shooting organisations, the GWCT, and even the evidence itself is unnecessary. It is your choice. More evidence to come.

 

[LuckyEddie]

BASC are sadly only for the rich and as such deserve what they get get.

It has no interest in the common man who has to account for every penny spent on his sport or to put different food on the table.
I don’t think I was ever able to afford anything advertised in the magazine when I was a member and even less so now.

To maintain a standard of lead having no significant impact on wildlife and then changing overnight to a ban.
Which supposedly was with the consensus of opinion of manufacturers and then almost immediately rebuffed by the cartridge manufacturers……

Well even Marie Antoinette would have been proud of such a stance

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Red-legged partridge

Incidence of lead shot ingestion in red-legged partridges (Alectoris rufa ) in Great Britain

Incidence of lead shot ingestion in red-legged partridges (Alectoris rufa) in Great Britain - PubMed

144 hunter-killed birds were collected randomly from 10 reared estates after shoot days during the 2001/02 season. The sample size from each estate ranged from 10 to 33, depending on availability. The shooting estates were located in the Midlands, East Anglia and the southern counties of England. The level of gamebird hunting varied between the estates. Two (1.4 %) gizzards of the 144 hunter-killed birds contained ingested lead shot. Both birds were male and they had been collected from different estates.

Lead-shot exposure in red-legged partridge (Alectoris rufa) on a driven shooting estate.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ge_Alectoris_rufa_on_a_Driven_Shooting_Estate

The goal of the study was to investigate the accumulation and spatial patterns of spent lead (Pb) shot pellets and the prevalence of shot ingestion in red-legged partridge in a driven shooting estate. Soil was collected using a regular sampling design perpendicular to three shooting lines. Factors involved in shot spatial distribution were investigated by a causal structural equation model (SEM). Shot ingestion prevalence and liver and bone Pb concentrations were studied in partridges hunted in 2004 and 2006. Shot soil-burden averaged 73,600 units/ha (i.e., 8.1 kg/ha). Shot density was significantly higher in front of than behind shooting lines, with greatest accumulation occurring at between 40-110 m and in certain ecotones (i.e., shrubland-dry cropland). Analyses revealed 7.8% of partridges with evidence of Pb shot ingestion. Particle size in diet, grit-size composition, and shot ingestion prevalence were significantly higher in 2004 than in 2006, indicating that supplying partridges with large seeds (i.e., corn) may increase the risk of Pb shot ingestion. Moving shooting lines into croplands and controlling seed size used for diet supplementation may reduce shot ingestion.

 

[jimmer.13]

BASC are sadly only for the rich and as such deserve what they get get.

It has no interest in the common man who has to account for every penny spent on his sport or to put different food on the table.
I don’t think I was ever able to afford anything advertised in the magazine when I was a member and even less so now.

To maintain a standard of lead having no significant impact on wildlife and then changing overnight to a ban.
Which supposedly was with the consensus of opinion of manufacturers and then almost immediately rebuffed by the cartridge manufacturers……

Well even Marie Antoinette would have been proud of such a stance

It’s the complete inability to read the room. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. I have no idea if BASC membership is dwindling nor do I care really as their obtuse approach to issues such as these made me cancel my membership about 15 years ago.
Granted they do some good here and there and I shall always appreciate and applaud success.
They are definitely not the organisation that they once were or set out to be. Quite sad really that the future of field sports for the majority are being sold down the river.

 

[BenBhoy]

loved getting fluffed up

Ohh we'd all love to get fluffed up!!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

It’s the complete inability to read the room. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. I have no idea if BASC membership is dwindling nor do I care really as their obtuse approach to issues such as these made me cancel my membership about 15 years ago.
Granted they do some good here and there and I shall always appreciate and applaud success.
They are definitely not the organisation that they once were or set out to be. Quite sad really that the future of field sports for the majority are being sold down the river.

The voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting continues to be supported by various organisations including BASC, CA and NGO. The evidence for that, which we started to discuss at your request, has been reviewed by GWCT, and that evidence underpins the transition. The voluntary transition, underpinned by that evidence, is a key argument against further restrictions on lead shot. By your own admission you left BASC 15 years ago, that's ten years prior to the start of the voluntary transition. Therefore, why do you choose to single out BASC for (misconceived) criticism 15 years later in this thread?

 

[LuckyEddie]

Interestingly why have red legged partridges come up?

Surely they are a non-native species and as such should be banned.
I would certainly sign a petition to ban red legs being released altogether.
I wonder how BASC would react to that?

You want to ban lead, I want to ban red legs.
Let’s see how the shooting goes.

 

[mudman]

Interestingly why have red legged partridges come up?

Surely they are a non-native species and as such should be banned.
I would certainly sign a petition to ban red legs being released altogether.
I wonder how BASC would react to that?

You want to ban lead, I want to ban red legs.
Let’s see how the shooting goes.

Why would you want to ban the release of Redlegs? Do you desire a ban on the release of pheasants too?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Interestingly why have red legged partridges come up?

Surely they are a non-native species and as such should be banned.
I would certainly sign a petition to ban red legs being released altogether.
I wonder how BASC would react to that?

You want to ban lead, I want to ban red legs.
Let’s see how the shooting goes.

Red-legged partridge are another example of a gamebird species where there is evidence that they eat lead shot. Feel free to act on your own views on the native/non-native status of any bird or mammal or plant present in the UK. BASC does not want to ban lead as you incorrectly assert. BASC is amongst other shooting organisations encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. The evidence for this has been reviewed by the GWCT and that underpins the voluntary transition. The voluntary transition, underpinned by that evidence, is a key argument against further restrictions on lead shot.

 

[Liveonce]

The HSE has finished its review. The decision is now a political one.

indeed which is why the HSE review did not recommend just continuing with the voluntary transition, but rather proposed legislation was the way forward to ban lead in the majority of ammunition.

 

[Dave Lakes]

The scientists did not collect them, it is based on samples and population estimates from that. The 50-100,000 estimate comes from a 2015 Oxford lead symposium "that in the UK in the order of 50,000-100,000 wildfowl (c. 1.5-3.0% of the wintering population) are likely to die each winter (i.e. during the shooting season) as a direct result of lead poisoning. For migratory swans, this represents a quarter of all recorded deaths. Wildfowl that die outside of the shooting season will be additional, as will those that die of causes exacerbated by lead poisoning. Several hundred thousand wildfowl a year may suffer welfare effects".

Oxford Lead Symposium

oxfordleadsymposium.info

Tens of millions of birds die every year from myriad causes including old age. Where did they all go? We don't often come across most of them as per your long experience.

A 2003 study by the Mammal Society estimated that UK cats kill 275 million prey animals annually, including 55 million birds. How did they arrive at the figure? Did someone count every one or was it an estimate? Should we trust this science?

Hi Conor, I found the paper that relates to this figure of 50,000-100,000.

It’s here if anyone else wants to read-

https://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp-content/uploads/OLS_proceedings/papers/OLS_proceedings_pain_cromie_green.pdf

Am I reading it correctly? As far as I can tell, that figure is derived by saying that birds suffering from the effects of lead ingestion are more likely to be shot?

 

[Smellydog]

I love the way these things are written.
It's almost like they desire to induce guilt and lambast certain individuals to make them feel awkward.

Many fall for it, I don't. I see it as nothing more than bullying!

 

[HonestJohn]

Why don't you consult your membership on what direction they would like to go with this lead free policy.

This ^

 

[HonestJohn]

This ^

To add, I am actually a BASC member, purely because Inhavent changed in 32 years of shooting. I don’t recall ever being sent a questionnaire or survey on what my opinion is and how I wanted BASC to represent my views on this.

Yes, they have sent things like how might it impact me and my shooting and concerns etc, but never ‘how would you like BASC to represent you in the fight against lead/lead free policy’

It’s therefore more of them driving their own business views forward instead of it being done on behalf of their membership, because the membership isn’t really being consulted, and in turn, it cannot be the ‘voice’ of shooting as it’s representing the shooting community based on what ‘it’ believes is the right approach.

Or am I completely crazy here?

 

[Liveonce]

To add, I am actually a BASC member, purely because Inhavent changed in 32 years of shooting. I don’t recall ever being sent a questionnaire or survey on what my opinion is and how I wanted BASC to represent my views on this.

Yes, they have sent things like how might it impact me and my shooting and concerns etc, but never ‘how would you like BASC to represent you in the fight against lead/lead free policy’

It’s therefore more of them driving their own business views forward instead of it being done on behalf of their membership, because the membership isn’t really being consulted, and in turn, it cannot be the ‘voice’ of shooting as it’s representing the shooting community based on what ‘it’ believes is the right approach.

Or am I completely crazy here?

like MPs they think they know best following their own personal agenda to the end regardless of the consequences on ordinary peoples lives.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

To add, I am actually a BASC member, purely because Inhavent changed in 32 years of shooting. I don’t recall ever being sent a questionnaire or survey on what my opinion is and how I wanted BASC to represent my views on this.

Yes, they have sent things like how might it impact me and my shooting and concerns etc, but never ‘how would you like BASC to represent you in the fight against lead/lead free policy’

It’s therefore more of them driving their own business views forward instead of it being done on behalf of their membership, because the membership isn’t really being consulted, and in turn, it cannot be the ‘voice’ of shooting as it’s representing the shooting community based on what ‘it’ believes is the right approach.

Or am I completely crazy here?

Policy decisions are made by BASC Council and Council members are elected by the membership. Voting is currently open for the 2025 Council election BASC Council elections and AGM Members can also engage in AGMs - of which there have been five since the 2020 - and there was one question on the voluntary transition in 2020 and none since then that I can recall.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

indeed which is why the HSE review did not recommend just continuing with the voluntary transition, but rather proposed legislation was the way forward to ban lead in the majority of ammunition.

Yes, the HSE has followed the same route as the European Chemicals Agency in many of its recommendations for lead restrictions in the EU (+NI). The EU is now at draft regulations stage. We await a joint by decision on the HSE recommendations by Defra and the devolved governments in Wales and Scotland.

 

[Liveonce]

Yes, the HSE has followed the same route as the European Chemicals Agency in many of its recommendations for lead restrictions in the EU (+NI). The EU is now at draft regulations stage. We await a joint by decision on the HSE recommendations by Defra and the devolved governments in Wales and Scotland.

So if the HSE intention has always been to align with the European Chemical Agency, despite BREXIT what was the point with respect to restrictions, of the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastic wads in the first place? Has it achieved anything positive regarding the recommendations?