Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Heym SR20]

Talking of water. A friend's bore pipe water was always excellent until one year recently a underhanded night time operation to dump thousands of tons of top soil scooped up from a scrap yard site so planning could go ahead on said site resulted in elevated nickel, zinc and cadmium but not LEAD levels despite the zinc, (@Heym SR20 don't touch anything galved today like a railing or something similar, there is lead in It!) It required a much more sophisticated filter system from there on in.
The rogues avoided prosecution but were ordered to remove the waste. God knows where it went next!

Anyway, the point is that the land has been shot over for centuries with lead before but before the dodgy dumping there was no heavy metals in the water!
In other words, the shot lead wasn't an issue and also, wild birds are thriving on there too.
Is it hard to understand why I'm a cynic?

Why don’t you go and do your own reading of much of the evidence. There are plenty of posts giving links ti all of the core science. Then you can make informed statements rather than just the ridiculous “ we have been doing it all our lives and its not hurt me”.

It might not have hurt you. But it may well have ruined some other organisms life and that includes not just animals and birds, but mankind as well.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Why don’t you go and do your own reading of much of the evidence. There are plenty of posts giving links ti all of the core science. Then you can make informed statements rather than just the ridiculous “ we have been doing it all our lives and its not hurt me”.

It might not have hurt you. But it may well have ruined some other organisms life and that includes not just animals and birds, but mankind as well.

A tad rich coming from a guy that can’t provide a single study showing eating lead shot meat has caused human illness

 

[jall55]

what Eley use is made by a Spanish plastic firm, they got lots of EU grant money to fund it.

They smell like they are made from PVA they are very flexible compared to a standard wad, especially one designed for steel shot. They are very hydroscopic hence they have to melt the petals together to seal the cartridge to stop water entering as the shelf life would be very questionable otherwise.

When lead is banned to me the best environmentally sustainable cartridges will be the ones using cardboard wads like the Jocker make as being cellulose (wood) microorganisms are present in the environment to eat them converting them to harmless biomass.

Having engaged with Eley this morning at fairly senior level i have been advised that

Their wad is hydro soluble
Dissolves completely and leaves no trace elements behind - only natural salt minerals and bio mass
It leaves no micro plastics

 

[Dunwaters]

So no time to write even one relevant sentence in response to my last post, but time to post one irrelevant one.

Here’s a relevant sentence.

Given where we are with lead restrictions imminent, how do you propose we proceed?

No history lessons, no recriminations about how we got here, just a short simple statement as to how you believe we should proceed.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

We surely cant be saying plastic does no harm Conor ?

Plastic in the ocean has been shown to do harm - we have all seen images of marine wildlife rescued because of being entangled in beer pack holders, plastic bags etc. What I find curious is that some of the folk that deny any impact of lead shot on birds and doubt the evidence seem happy enough to take on faith that plastic shotgun wads cause harm. It is a fair point to question where is the direct evidence of that? Is it not more than plastic wads are visible on the ground whereas lead shot is largely invisible to us. Tongue in cheek, someone said to me that perhaps if plastic wads were coloured brown like fibre wads and lead shot was coloured luminous yellow that might change perspectives? The evidence of course is that lead shot is having an impact on birds - they find it and eat it, either as grit or mistaking it for seeds, as has been found in 100s studies worldwide. Quibbling about the evidence aside, it is obvious that moving away from lead shot and plastic wads for live quarry shooting is moving in the right direction for the right reasons as per the voluntary transition. And shoots such as yours have already done so and are leading the way on this.

 

[Leec6.5]

I’m struggling to get my head around why this is still a topic of conversation, it’s the same drivel as it was five years ago

 

[Liveonce]

Having engaged with Eley this morning at fairly senior level i have been advised that

Their wad is hydro soluble
Dissolves completely and leaves no trace elements behind - only natural salt minerals and bio mass
It leaves no micro plastics

That’s good news then, did they offer the data sheet from what that are made from?

 

[Liveonce]

Plastic in the ocean has been shown to do harm - we have all seen images of marine wildlife rescued because of being entangled in beer pack holders, plastic bags etc. What I find curious is that some of the folk that deny any impact of lead shot on birds and doubt the evidence seem happy enough to take on faith that plastic shotgun wads cause harm. It is a fair point to question where is the direct evidence of that? Is it not more than plastic wads are visible on the ground whereas lead shot is largely invisible to us. Tongue in cheek, someone said to me that perhaps if plastic wads were coloured brown like fibre wads and lead shot was coloured luminous yellow that might change perspectives? The evidence of course is that lead shot is having an impact on birds - they find it and eat it, either as grit or mistaking it for seeds, as has been found in 100s studies worldwide. Quibbling about the evidence aside, it is obvious that moving away from lead shot and plastic wads for live quarry shooting is moving in the right direction for the right reasons as per the voluntary transition. And shoots such as yours have already done so and are leading the way on this.

Think that is a valid point in that the wads are visible on the ground and the shot not so.
The express earth wads were brown, is not the issue that people see plastic waste as littering, pollution, I know if i visit a clay ground that allows plastic wads and lots are laying on the ground it’s not a great image for the sport.

Earth wads

Dear Mr. xxxxxxxxxxxx. ,


Many thanks for your email when we first launched the Earth Wad product’s we did display the compostable certification logo but they have since been removed. The material supplied and used in the Earth Wad is certified under EN13432 certificate number 7P2102-Ed.B but because parts of the wad component are over the maximum thickness of 1000um we cannot use this certification logo until the product is tested independently.


As for the question regarding the time frame for biodegradation in an open grass field, the parameters that determines the biodegradation of wads made from Biodolomer in an open grass field are as follows:

-UV-light

-Temperature

-Bacteria culture

-Oxygen supply

The time needed for full biodegradation will thus vary considerably depending on where such an open grass field is located, as well as the time period during which the biodegradation is to take place. It will take longer than in an industrial composting facility, but it’s impossible to say how much longer, given the uncertainties surrounding the aforementioned parameters for the open grass field.

I hope this helps you with your enquiry and we apologies for any misleading with the logo.


Kindest regards,

Marcus

Marcus A Iddon

UK Sales Manager

Lyalvale Express Limited

 

[Liveonce]

that misleading with the logo was claiming the earth wads complied with EN13432 when only the material they were made from did if no more than 1000um thick, very naughty of them hence my reluctance to belive a lot of the claims about biodegradable wads, without proof of their certification.

Express no longer use the earth wad as now part of the fiocchi empire so use the green core wads.

 

[Ruger#1]

It might not have hurt you. But it may well have ruined some other organisms life and that includes not just animals and birds, but mankind as well.

Do you fail to see the hypocrisy of that statement in light of the fact that your choice of hobby’s aim is to “ruin another organism life”
Perhaps if shooters opted to shoot half as much or showed restraint and shot half the usual bag number that would have a far greater impact on the environment than further lead shot legislation.
Unless of course you are one of those hunters who as earlier stated they would continue hunting even if it meant clubbing the animal to death considering smaller bags and fewer outings would be a positive move forward and would halve the amount of plastic pollution you would be responsible for.

 

[jall55]

That’s good news then, did they offer the data sheet from what that are made from?

No - i just asked what it broke down to once spent mate

 

[Ruger#1]

Here’s a relevant sentence.

Given where we are with lead restrictions imminent, how do you propose we proceed?

No history lessons, no recriminations about how we got here, just a short simple statement as to how you believe we should proceed.

So no reply to the issues I raised on the grounds of no time but time aplenty for irrelevant replies.
I’ve not been guilty of posting history lessons , all my posts refer to the recent lead shot restrictions fiasco that was BASC’s effort to oppose further lead shot restrictions.
I note that your own belief in how we should proceed is to ignore recent past mistakes , not learn from experience and willingly accept further restrictions even though driven by a political agenda and capitalised on by the anti fieldsports movement.
Read through #695 do you think BASC can deliver on any of those possibilities, I notice that rather than focusing on lessening the impact of further restrictions and seeking exemptions they are preoccupying themselves with posting the details of future legislation for your acceptance.
When following a political agenda all issues are black and white mirrored in both your own and the BASC’s response to the proposed further legislation.
As stated earlier by C O’G / BASC outside the bubble ,as they put it ,the opinions of the general population,media and uk government seem to take precedence over the people they claim to be the voice of.
Enough said ,time for a move to an organisation that doesn’t just claim to be the voice of shooters but at least puts their concerns above the ill informed general population and media and the political interests of the uk government.

 

[jall55]

that misleading with the logo was claiming the earth wads complied with EN13432 when only the material they were made from did if no more than 1000um thick, very naughty of them hence my reluctance to belive a lot of the claims about biodegradable wads, without proof of their certification.

Express no longer use the earth wad as now part of the fiocchi empire so use the green core wads.

Still pick a few of these other "bio" eco wad things up from another manufacturer @Smellydog

 

[Liveonce]

No - i just asked what it broke down to once spent mate

let’s hope they are not just telling you what you want to hear, but PVA is not all bad.

Me very sceptical of some of the claims made by biodegradable wads, given the plastics industry has been years looking for the holy grail of a biodegradable plastic that can be a true substitute for single use plastic.
Yet suddenly shooting has solved the problem

BBC One - Panorama, Coca-Cola’s 100 Billion Bottle Problem

Panorama investigates Coca-Cola's promises to crack down on plastic waste.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mike1979]

Do you fail to see the hypocrisy of that statement in light of the fact that your choice of hobby’s aim is to “ruin another organism life”
Perhaps if shooters opted to shoot half as much or showed restraint and shot half the usual bag number that would have a far greater impact on the environment than further lead shot legislation.
Unless of course you are one of those hunters who as earlier stated they would continue hunting even if it meant clubbing the animal to death considering smaller bags and fewer outings would be a positive move forward and would halve the amount of plastic pollution you would be responsible for.

Its not a simple one and I appreciate that but in many cases (not talking about commercial shooting) farmers want you to reduce problem birds such as corvids and pigeons as they are damaging crops...and in that case its about reduction not "showing restraint".

Not entirely sure "clubbing an animal to death" should be used in sensible conversation ...but at 36 pages I think that boat has sailed

 

[jall55]

let’s hope they are not just telling you what you want to hear, but PVA is not all bad.

Me very sceptical of some of the claims made by biodegradable wads, given the plastics industry has been years looking for the holy grail of a biodegradable plastic that can be a true substitute for single use plastic.
Yet suddenly shooting has solved the problem

BBC One - Panorama, Coca-Cola’s 100 Billion Bottle Problem

Panorama investigates Coca-Cola's promises to crack down on plastic waste.

www.bbc.co.uk

I hope not and i really dont think so
I have it by text so believe me if i subsequently found out it was not and i had been polluting my land even worse than before i would easily be able to discuss this with them

 

[Liveonce]

I hope not and i really dont think so
I have it by text so believe me if i subsequently found out it was not and i had been polluting my land even worse than before i would easily be able to discuss this with them

You could ask the manufacture if the wads in Spain, however the water soluble technology is in a lot of consumer products now from fishing to washing machine tablets so probably as good as it gets other than cardboard tube type wads like Jocker use.

 

[rookstorm]

As I read that BASC have been wanting a legal lead ban, but was keeping quite about it to its membership

Simple ,everyone bin BASC ,Shooting birds with small steel cartridges for one is a no no .Also gone are the days with shooting sixty and seventy yard clays in big competitions

 

[jall55]

You could ask the manufacture if the wads in Spain, however the water soluble technology is in a lot of consumer products now from fishing to washing machine tablets so probably as good as it gets other than cardboard tube type wads like Jocker use.

Ask if they are made in Spain ?

Funnily enough i had a few issues with a box or two - or more really with misfires
Contacting them they said the batch i had was an old batch - i had bought second hand - that had been made in Spain - manufacturing has moved from there but not sure on just the wads

 

[rookstorm]

Plastic in the ocean has been shown to do harm - we have all seen images of marine wildlife rescued because of being entangled in beer pack holders, plastic bags etc. What I find curious is that some of the folk that deny any impact of lead shot on birds and doubt the evidence seem happy enough to take on faith that plastic shotgun wads cause harm. It is a fair point to question where is the direct evidence of that? Is it not more than plastic wads are visible on the ground whereas lead shot is largely invisible to us. Tongue in cheek, someone said to me that perhaps if plastic wads were coloured brown like fibre wads and lead shot was coloured luminous yellow that might change perspectives? The evidence of course is that lead shot is having an impact on birds - they find it and eat it, either as grit or mistaking it for seeds, as has been found in 100s studies worldwide. Quibbling about the evidence aside, it is obvious that moving away from lead shot and plastic wads for live quarry shooting is moving in the right direction for the right reasons as per the voluntary transition. And shoots such as yours have already done so and are leading the way on this.

There will be tons of wounded birds in a days shoot with steel shite in the uk .We cant even buy fast goose steel cartridges in this country same as they use in the usa market due to stupid eu rules on speed ,no Hogdons powder etc either