GWCT lead ban : One for the BASC bashers

Status
Not open for further replies.
All interesting stuff Conor, but just take note that raptor predation according to Game Con
has far more effect on numbers where there are less pairs which is the case in most areas. I find it quite strange that lead shot ingestion seems to be more prevalent in the late 20th century than it was the 200 years before that. I also feel that buzzard and Kite predation is far worse than most conservation opinions think. Having had a Hen Harrier visit and also seen the results elsewhere on a friend's estate I hope we never get another occurrence as it wiped a covey out in my case.
Buzzard are awful. They sit and watch all day. As soon as something moves they lock on!
I don't know what folk see when they watch them. They are just a scruffy predatory scavaging brown crow to me.

I found a sparrow hawk nest a couple of seasons back and the base of the tree was littered with blackbirds. Was there any young partridge they would be toast.
Not than adult is an issue for a hen sparrow hawk.
 
All interesting stuff Conor, but just take note that raptor predation according to Game Con
has far more effect on numbers where there are less pairs which is the case in most areas. I find it quite strange that lead shot ingestion seems to be more prevalent in the late 20th century than it was the 200 years before that. I also feel that buzzard and Kite predation is far worse than most conservation opinions think. Having had a Hen Harrier visit and also seen the results elsewhere on a friend's estate I hope we never get another occurrence as it wiped a covey out in my case.
I think we may have discussed it previously but when I was radiotracking wild greys in Ireland young harriers would come down from the nearby hills in the autumn and I have seen them hunt coveys young and old - but never successful - the adults always saw the harriers coming ages away with a special alarm call and the covey would run to cover - namely gorse bushes. Indeed that alarm call alerted me to the harriers before I saw them! The interactions became more frequent, so much so that we wrote a paper on it:

Coexistence without conflict, the recovery of Ireland’s endangered wild grey partridge

 
I agree that things have changed so much. The data for the sparrowhawks and grey partridge is however more recent than the 1970s.

The sparrowhawk project started by investigating raptor kill rates and the causes of local extinctions on downland in Sussex. It then developed into a study across 20 sites that contained different densities of raptors and partridges, spread across eight counties from Dorset to Lincolnshire. The aim was to gather information about partridge survival and habitat use from radio-tracking under different levels of raptor predation risk. Researchers spent over 3,149 hours gathering data across 20 sites during the winters of 2000/01, 2001/02 and 2002/03.


The post mortems on grey partridge revealing lead shot ingestion were from 1947 to 1992, where successive pathologists at The Game Conservancy Trust carried out 1,318 post-mortems on adult wild grey partridges found dead in the UK. During a study of chick food from 1968 to 1978 on the Sussex Downs, the gizzards of 29 wild chicks aged up to 6 weeks were also examined.

Dick Pott's analysis of that data showed that the incidence of lead poisoning increased from 1947–1958 to 1963–1992. During 1963–1992, the incidence of lead gunshot ingestion was 4.5±1.0% in adults and 6.9±4.7% in chicks. The weights of individual lead shot in the chick gizzards showed a rapid rate of erosion, indicating a short retention time in the gizzard, as has also been reported for adult waterfowl and game birds.

Dick explained in more detail as follows:

It is remarkable that between 1968 and 1978, two chicks sampled from separate broods on the Sussex Downs had, within 3 weeks of hatching, ingested 13 and 14 lead shot. Moreover, the erosion of the individual shot suggests that they were ingested within a short discrete period of time. Somewhat similarly, a grey partridge in Denmark in 1976 had ingested 34 lead shot, a grey partridge in Wiltshire in 1966, 26 (this study) and a pheasant on the Sussex Downs in 1970, 87. All these cases occurred in a predominantly arable environment where cultivation removes most of the shot from the soil surface.

The measured incidence of lead shot in gizzards considerably underestimates the annual exposure because the shot is retained in the gizzard only for a relatively short period of time. The average erosion of lead in the grey partridge chicks, 55%, is remarkable given that the chicks were aged only 2–3 weeks (18 days) and had presumably not ingested the lead on their first day. The erosion in the chick gizzards is consistent with lead shot loss in adult mallard; mourning dove (Zenaida macroura) and bobwhite quail (Colinus virginianus) and willow grouse (Lagopus lagopus). It follows that the gizzards of some living partridges that contain no lead shot at the time of sampling will probably have contained shot previously.


As regards the 2016 paper using data to model the impact of lead shot ingestion in the grey partridge population, that was based on data from the Potts UK data from 1947-1992, grey partridge in Scotland from 1997 to 2003, a massive radiotracking project of 1,009 hen greys in France from 1995-1997. The data showed direct mortality from lead shot ingestion at 4% and ultimate mortality from lead shot ingestion at 7%. The population modelling based on that data estimated a reduced population size of partridges by 10% due to lead shot ingestion.


With all studies there are flaws - and i think that far more partridge - young - are predated by birds of prey in summer - once the grass and the crops are cut than in winter. I would perhaps think the study did not show this as the young were perhaps not radio tracked ?

I would also say that buzzard are significant predators of them
 
Buzzard are awful. They sit and watch all day. As soon as something moves they lock on!
I don't know what folk see when they watch them. They are just a scruffy predatory scavaging brown crow to me.

I found a sparrow hawk nest a couple of seasons back and the base of the tree was littered with blackbirds. Was there any young partridge they would be toast.
Not than adult is an issue for a hen sparrow hawk.

Totally agree - buzzards are killing so so many birds - and there are simply so many - its nothing for us to see 8/10 in a morning over 200 acres - Where we stalk we may also see 20/30 kites ! - thank goodness they only eat carrion - RIGHTY HO ! - They must think we never go outside !
 
I think we may have discussed it previously but when I was radiotracking wild greys in Ireland young harriers would come down from the nearby hills in the autumn and I have seen them hunt coveys young and old - but never successful - the adults always saw the harriers coming ages away with a special alarm call and the covey would run to cover - namely gorse bushes. Indeed that alarm call alerted me to the harriers before I saw them! The interactions became more frequent, so much so that we wrote a paper on it:

Coexistence without conflict, the recovery of Ireland’s endangered wild grey partridge

Interesting, when I was over there a Game farmer from Roscommon was breeding them for release. I tried a few but no joy. Never saw a Harrier or a buzzard where I was. Sparrowhawks were murderous, birds to release pens kills within an hour. Plenty of conflict there. Peregrines were numerous but no problems. Pine Martens were a big problem.
 
Like if said before vote with your feet, these threads are just going around in circles again and again!

These organisations are too powerful and need dropping a peg or 2 and the only way to do that is cut off the money and financially cripple them.

Instead of continuously going over old ground, create new there are a better and cheaper places to get your insurance. These organisations are not what they once were.
 
With all studies there are flaws - and i think that far more partridge - young - are predated by birds of prey in summer - once the grass and the crops are cut than in winter. I would perhaps think the study did not show this as the young were perhaps not radio tracked ?

I would also say that buzzard are significant predators of them
Yes, I would imagine different dynamics from place to place. That research on wild grey partridge and hen harriers was on lowland bogland in midlands of Ireland. We found evidence of several sparrowhawk kills. Also two separate occasions where young chicks were found flattened by tractors. The key issue impacting chick survival rate was colder than average temperatures in June. I also studied wild grey partridge in Prague - that was a real eye opener. Grey partridge breeding really well in absence of any predator control on brownfield sites. Hot and dry weather at the right time. Huge diversity of plants and insects from natural regeneration.

The GWCT research in Sussex found that female sparrowhawks were the most commonly seen raptor attacking or feeding on grey partridges and grey partridges were not important in the diet of buzzards. Also, the most important time for raptor predation of grey partridges was late winter but that losses to raptors can be reduced by providing tall cover in February and March.


A study in Scotland found high raptor predation levels of radio-tracked hens with weather seemingly influencing behaviour of birds making them more susceptible to predation.

 
Interesting, when I was over there a Game farmer from Roscommon was breeding them for release. I tried a few but no joy. Never saw a Harrier or a buzzard where I was. Sparrowhawks were murderous, birds to release pens kills within an hour. Plenty of conflict there. Peregrines were numerous but no problems. Pine Martens were a big problem.
Thanks. I remember there were various attempts to reintroduce greys using farm reared stock by gun clubs across the country and never successful but there was plenty learned from trying. Some releases were radio-tracked in Lullymore where there were wild greys and I recall one or two pairing with wild birds and a complete failure for reared/wild pairs. That was along time ago and the GWCT advises not to release farm reared birds where there is wild stock. The reared birds are also far more susceptible to predation including birds of prey.
 
Thanks. I remember there were various attempts to reintroduce greys using farm reared stock by gun clubs across the country and never successful but there was plenty learned from trying. Some releases were radio-tracked in Lullymore where there were wild greys and I recall one or two pairing with wild birds and a complete failure for reared/wild pairs. That was along time ago and the GWCT advises not to release farm reared birds where there is wild stock. The reared birds are also far more susceptible to predation including birds of prey.
Funnily enough the Irish Game farmer was a Cornishman but at least he was trying.
A long time ago as beat man I reared approx 900 Greys with broodies. These were released to subsidise wild stock each year.
We had good results, but ground predators were dealt with ruthlessly, we had almost nil Corvids. The odd raptor appeared occasionally. Where the odd wild pair had lost their eggs I fostered poults onto them.
I found that quite easy to do once you had established a coopful of poults as a covey. When plucking and dressing birds for the house,I used to open the gizzards to check what was in them but never found lead, despite the estate having been shot over for 200+ years.
 
Well, they like to think they are.
I'd mention that a lot if the "science" GCWT quote was from RSPB sponsored studies. None of these included any lead isotope mass spectrometry tests. These would have given a definitive answer as to the source of alleged lead poisoning. When asked to carry these tests out, everybody refused. Lead was dead long before any discussions took place.
This new measure is commercially and politically driven by the shooting organisations, the shooting press, the game processing industry and the ministry.
This is not about welfare or science or what is right. This is just dirty business and those mentioned above stink of the mess they have wallowed in. As far as I am concerned, they are no better than low level crooks.
 
Buzzard are awful. They sit and watch all day. As soon as something moves they lock on!
I don't know what folk see when they watch them. They are just a scruffy predatory scavaging brown crow to me.

I found a sparrow hawk nest a couple of seasons back and the base of the tree was littered with blackbirds. Was there any young partridge they would be toast.
Not than adult is an issue for a hen sparrow hawk.
Avian foxes. Add nothing, just opportunistic killers. Wouldn't kill the last one (or any bearing in mind the penalties) but their numbers are unhealthy. This is what the townies want. Soon there will be nothing but starving deer, badgers, foxes buzzards, magpies and red kites. Packham and the BBC will be chuffed to bits. They will turn our country into a desert.
 
Like if said before vote with your feet, these threads are just going around in circles again and again!

These organisations are too powerful and need dropping a peg or 2 and the only way to do that is cut off the money and financially cripple them.

Instead of continuously going over old ground, create new there are a better and cheaper places to get your insurance. These organisations are not what they once were.
Interestingly, most good quality house insurance policies that have contents attached, already include liability cover for "private pursuits". NFUM and other competitors of theirs in the rural sector include it as standard, so if you brain someone with a golf ball or your .308 you have cover, provided it is in a non commercial scenario. So being a member of a shooting body for insurance alone may not be necessary.
 
As per comment above, why would you do that? GWCT is science-led its just that its advice on this topic differs from your world view. It's not siding with antis its the science and goes back decades. The antis disagree with GWCT science on all sorts of studies on the positive impacts of shooting on biodiversity. Are they right? To cancel your membership supporting the scientists doing the objective research on shooting for decades because it challenges your world views is understandable in the heat of the moment but perhaps reflect, then contact the GWCT and talk to someone there before making a rash decision.

Conor, this isn’t a dig at yourself. But everyone seems to overlook the following and this has become quite apparent from a wildfowling perspective :

The majority of steel shot cartridges use plastic wads. Most game shoots use fibre only.

We’re basically swapping something,(lead) that ‘may’ have an effect on wildlife vs something that definitely will litter the countryside.

You have some biodegradable options now but 1) you had to sell a kidney compared to the standard stuff and 2) I’m still very sceptical what microplastics these break down into.

And then to come full circle, is it really the use of lead that’s affecting game sales? Folk aren’t going to start buying it by the bucket because it’s now shot with steel. People can’t be bothered prepping it or with the faff and that’s the main issue. It would have to be sold at a fraction of the cost of chicken and I can see that happening.

Overall the whole idea is a flawed PR stunt. As I’ve said before, I’ve had to drop 2 shot sizes and go up about 6g per cartridge to get the same terminal effect so all things aren’t equal. I’m probably more likely to break a tooth on steel than to suffer illness from the long term effects of lead pellets which generally get spat back out 😂
 
I'd mention that a lot if the "science" GCWT quote was from RSPB sponsored studies. None of these included any lead isotope mass spectrometry tests. These would have given a definitive answer as to the source of alleged lead poisoning. When asked to carry these tests out, everybody refused. Lead was dead long before any discussions took place.
This new measure is commercially and politically driven by the shooting organisations, the shooting press, the game processing industry and the ministry.
This is not about welfare or science or what is right. This is just dirty business and those mentioned above stink of the mess they have wallowed in. As far as I am concerned, they are no better than low level crooks.
Lead isotopes are being increasingly used to detect lead ammunition as the source of lead levels in tissues and bones of dead birds. Detecting lead shot in the gizzard is actually a rather crude measure that underestimates incidence of lead shot ingestion by birds because the lead shot is ground down and absorbed and the rest passed through fairly quickly. The studies using lead isotopes are mainly overseas but this technique was used in 2003 for red grouse on moors in Yorkshire and Scotland.

 
Conor, this isn’t a dig at yourself. But everyone seems to overlook the following and this has become quite apparent from a wildfowling perspective :

The majority of steel shot cartridges use plastic wads. Most game shoots use fibre only.

We’re basically swapping something,(lead) that ‘may’ have an effect on wildlife vs something that definitely will litter the countryside.

You have some biodegradable options now but 1) you had to sell a kidney compared to the standard stuff and 2) I’m still very sceptical what microplastics these break down into.

And then to come full circle, is it really the use of lead that’s affecting game sales? Folk aren’t going to start buying it by the bucket because it’s now shot with steel. People can’t be bothered prepping it or with the faff and that’s the main issue. It would have to be sold at a fraction of the cost of chicken and I can see that happening.

Overall the whole idea is a flawed PR stunt. As I’ve said before, I’ve had to drop 2 shot sizes and go up about 6g per cartridge to get the same terminal effect so all things aren’t equal. I’m probably more likely to break a tooth on steel than to suffer illness from the long term effects of lead pellets which generally get spat back out 😂
In fairness the wads issue has been on the radar for some time - the voluntary transition being for lead shot and plastic wads. All the other aspects you raise are also valid and that has all been in the mix in arguments with the HSE since its review started in 2021. The same arguments hunters in the EU have been making as regards the ECHA review. A timetable has been set for GB and will soon be determined in the EU + NI.

As for BASC, this is from the FAQ:

Will BASC continue to lobby against any aspects of the proposed ban?

The Government has shortened the expected timeframe for shotgun ammunition from five years to three years on the assumption that the ammunition is readily available – that is not the case for commercial and supply reasons beyond our sector’s control – and we are urging the government to oppose the shortened proposal of three years and go back to the to a five-year timescale proposed by the Health and Safety Executive.

BASC has concerns with the proposed reclassification of larger calibres to include .243. This risks adversely affecting around 60,000 deer stalkers and could have a serious impact on the national deer cull, which affects road safety, food production and undermines government environmental priorities.

We will continue to lobby Ministers on the issues that relate to .243 such as stabilisation and the lack of muzzle energy, requesting that large calibres be set at 6.5mm and above.

 
Plas wads. Easy enough to pick up if they can be seen. Make them bright orange and they will be almost as easy pick up in most circumstances as the empty shotgun cartridges.
 
Yeah, err it'll be easy for the antis to survey as well 🤦

Not if we pick them up it wouldnt. I rarely shoot plaswads inland but if I do I make every effort to pick them up, it is possible to get the majority. They never go that far and I generally have a better than vague recollection which direction I have shot in.
 
Not if we pick them up it wouldnt. I rarely shoot plaswads inland but if I do I make every effort to pick them up, it is possible to get the majority. They never go that far and I generally have a better than vague recollection which direction I have shot in.
Agreed but it's a big if on a large shoot or huge pigeon day!
 
Lead isotopes are being increasingly used to detect lead ammunition as the source of lead levels in tissues and bones of dead birds. Detecting lead shot in the gizzard is actually a rather crude measure that underestimates incidence of lead shot ingestion by birds because the lead shot is ground down and absorbed and the rest passed through fairly quickly. The studies using lead isotopes are mainly overseas but this technique was used in 2003 for red grouse on moors in Yorkshire and Scotland.

Sadly the methodology of isotopic mass spectrometry was not, I repeat "not", used in any of the work carried out by those writing the reports that the GCWT saw fit to use as the basis of their position. The position then parroted by the other organisations too lazy (money was no problem) to conduct their own work to confirm or refute the evidence used. Hardly dripping with an excess of scientific rigour.
That the test is now apparently being used has no bearing on the point in question and irrelevant. All it does is magnify the veracity of the point I made above (and some months ago) that it  should have been used.
It is telling though that the LAG, GCWT, BASC et al flatly refused to conduct the tests, knowing it would very likely undermine their bent political agenda.
They, and those who so willingly stuck their snouts in the same trough of swill, may as well have used evidence directly from Packham himself.
No...it is a disgrace.
Sell out followed by cop-out (failing to challenge the findings and judgement) probably followed in turn by "bug out" when you all pick up your gongs and promotions.
Shameful behaviour.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top