Lead and nontoxic debate

[timbrayford]

Accepted, but.....if I post an article about youths being stabbed with steel knives and actually dying, can I claim that it is more relevant to persuade people who believe that using steel based ammo is safe?

The underlying principle of these proposals is they are a direct attack on shooting sports, if it was to save the environment both police and military would face the same restrictions

 

[Apthorpe]

Would you have preferred me not to post it and remain ignorant of the headline and it’s possible effect ?

I am entirely neutral on whether I think you ought to have posted iit, but strongly in favour of you feeling free to post it.
However, I think it's as inapplicable to the debate over lead ammunition as my post above. The proposed ban to lead ammunition is 100% political and no evidence to the contrary has ever been presented.

 

[Apthorpe]

The underlying principle of these proposals is they are a direct attack on shooting sports, if it was to save the environment both police and military would face the same restrictions

Indeed, and the same individuals would have been up in arms about the exception to the ban on lead paint for road markings - which are a massive source of exposure for grit-eating birds and run-off. Yet, not one single squeak ever. Necause it's nothing to do with lead, it is anti-shooting activism.

 

[Rutland lad]

Indeed, and the same individuals would have been up in arms about the exception to the ban on lead paint for road markings - which are a massive source of exposure for grit-eating birds and run-off. Yet, not one single squeak ever. Necause it's nothing to do with lead, it is anti-shooting activism.

Agree totally.
Everything is Political to some degree or other, but this current Government sees any field sports as a preserve of ‘toffs’ and therefore should be outlawed.
I live and stalk in Englands original fox hunting country. If you wanted to meet toffs in the years between 1875-1939 you went to Melton Mowbray. There were more Americans looking for wives/husbands amongst fellow fox hunters here than were in the US at that time. There are a number of hunts run around this area, and it breaks my heart to think they’ll outlaw hunting. The grooms jobs that will go, the horses that will end up as dog food, the farriers, the food suppliers - the knock on effects will be felt by the working people this Government is supposed to represent. They don’t care. It’s a class war being waged in front of us by townies and millionaire socialists that have no clue at all.
Rant over.

 

[Apthorpe]

Agree totally.
Everything is Political to some degree or other, but this current Government sees any field sports as a preserve of ‘toffs’ and therefore should be outlawed.

I don't think this government has much to do with this. This is the product of a stutch up between antis in the Civil Service and a tiny group of vocal and persistent antis funded by the RSPB and others.

I live and stalk in Englands original fox hunting country. If you wanted to meet toffs in the years between 1875-1939 you went to Melton Mowbray. There were more Americans looking for wives/husbands amongst fellow fox hunters here than were in the US at that time. There are a number of hunts run around this area, and it breaks my heart to think they’ll outlaw hunting. The grooms jobs that will go, the horses that will end up as dog food, the farriers, the food suppliers - the knock on effects will be felt by the working people this Government is supposed to represent. They don’t care. It’s a class war being waged in front of us by townies that have no clue at all.
Rant over.

The townies who don't have a clue are just a tool of the people really behind both processes. In both cases, they are manipulated by opinion polls' leadong questions into giving opinions with zero thought.
Had social media existed then, you'd find the same individual activists behind both processes.

 

[Ratel]

There was a video A few years back, I believe the head buyer for Waitrose when they announced that they would stop stocking game shot with lead.

Their reasoning was simple. Because there is no deemed safe level of lead to ingest they cannot stock it, and cannot answer the question when a mum looking to feed her children asks is it safe.

Now there will be multiple come backs and options to this, but the reasoning is simple.

There is no safe level deemed and therefore when some asks is it safe they can’t say yes.

Wonder why they don't take processed food off their shelves then, together with food constructed from 6 times sprayed crops or fruit. Not too long ago soft fruits were sprayed with Phosdrin and other nerve destroying substances. Lead is all scaremongering compared with substances used in food processing or poured on animals or deadly in 5 seconds in It's undiluted form.

 

[palmer_mike]

There was a video A few years back, I believe the head buyer for Waitrose when they announced that they would stop stocking game shot with lead.

Their reasoning was simple. Because there is no deemed safe level of lead to ingest they cannot stock it, and cannot answer the question when a mum looking to feed her children asks is it safe.

Now there will be multiple come backs and options to this, but the reasoning is simple.

There is no safe level deemed and therefore when some asks is it safe they can’t say yes.

Are they also going to take tons of tuna off the shelf?
Widely recognised that there are quite high levels of mercury in tinned tuna. There is not safe level of mercury in the same way that there isn’t in lead……

 

[timbrayford]

Are they also going to take tons of tuna off the shelf?
Widely recognised that there are quite high levels of mercury in tinned tuna. There is not safe level of mercury in the same way that there isn’t in lead……

Oh please, don't get me started on mercuric amalgam fillings, I'll have to get most of my teeth pulled out, in case you are wondering mercury is loads more toxic than lead!

 

[palmer_mike]

Oh please, don't get me started on mercuric amalgam fillings, I'll have to get most of my teeth pulled out, in case you are wondering mercury is loads more toxic than lead!

Indeed. My mum had to have all hers drilled out and replaced with white fillings as she found she was having loads of migraines……
Doctor mentioned there may be a link and funnily enough she doesn’t have any where near the same amount no then old amalgam fillings are gone…..

 

[JMH123]

There was a video A few years back, I believe the head buyer for Waitrose when they announced that they would stop stocking game shot with lead.

Their reasoning was simple. Because there is no deemed safe level of lead to ingest they cannot stock it, and cannot answer the question when a mum looking to feed her children asks is it safe.

Now there will be multiple come backs and options to this, but the reasoning is simple.

There is no safe level deemed and therefore when some asks is it safe they can’t say yes.

Waitrose et al, as far as I am aware and as far as I have been advised, have only and will only buy and stock Grade 1 game meat (in the case of game birds) that has no shot in the breast area (i.e. are head or wing shot birds). I have never seen a national retailer selling game bird products presented with evidence of shot damage. No national retailer will risk a customer cracking a tooth on a steel ball they find in their supper either. This whole section of the argument is a fabrication.

The wholesale lead ban and the respective concessions are not logical, nor the much vaunted science properly applied or interpreted. A decent KC would make very short work of any attempt to claim the constituent parts of this ban are based on facts, research and evidence (rather than politics).
I have to say this whole lead ban saga has been, in my view, a terrible and naïve mistake by the shooting representative bodies, and yawned through by a majority of shooting folk who use only modern o/u (steel proofed) shotguns to shoot only driven game, and don't think too much about anything else.
As ever, sensible debate is clouded by extreme views and misunderstanding.
It is not over yet in terms of time periods and exemptions, but I fear the horse may have already bolted in principle.

 

[JTO]

You are probably safe if you haven't got s gizzard!
The lead health concerns are all/mainly to do with birds.

 

[Spear Chucker]

No deemed safe level and no safe level are entirely different things,but why not a simple retail ban on lead shot game instead of the broad brush ban it all proposals?

Precisely. This does not imply "not safe", but "no-one has tested it" or "there is no test to determine a safe level" or, dare I suggest, "there are so many variables on a case by case basis, that it is impossible to determine a one-size-fits-all safe level" by implication and inference "no safe level " also equals "no unsafe level". So what to the starlings do? "It is all dangerous".
Ye Gods but they are so stupid they shouldn't be allowed hard cutlery. They should be wood chipped and spread on the land for fertiliser. Most use they could ever be and we would whittle a load of rubbish from the gene pool too. Oops! Did I say that out loud?

 

[Sol]

I can't believe people don't take most of the lead pellets out at the butchering stage or is that just me.
And if you are that bothered get a small metal detector.

This country also has a ideology too launch lead at whatever flies past, and If they hit it anywhere Its a "Good shot, and one for the bag" being a beater that took nearly all birds home each shoot It was pretty obvious days we had great shots and days we had terrible shots.

Having 15-ish head/neck shot birds, and 30 wishbone area(?) hit birds was lovely, obviously a few hit in the ass end or minced regardless but it bet the days where almost every single bird was hut centermass, I found those ones too always have the most pellets in them usually up by the spine trapped under the skin.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Nobody mentioning the toxicity of lead chromate chemical (used in lead paint) vs bog standard Pb lead?

 

[Smellydog]

You are probably safe if you haven't got s gizzard!
The lead health concerns are all/mainly to do with birds.

Aye, cars kill more birds and them vile cats.
Then the bird flue, that kills more.
Blown up out of proportion to crush a minority. The definitive mark of an non democracy society and all the hall marks of witch hunting dictatorships using the people against its own people.

I wish we could have Churchill's opinion!

I fear the more desperate that headless chicken in office and his two brainless sidekicks get the worse they will be.
I feel so sad for those that voted them in. Talk about cringe worthy!

 

[enfieldspares]

If we take this “precautionary principle” seriously, the most important thing we must do is to immediately cease all radio, TV and satellite coomunications forever, because of the risk of extinction if detected by aliens.

This is correct. As to detect such that alien civilisation would have to have a greater technological capability that we posses. It is akin (these idiots sending out signals) to the Mayans and Aztecs putting up signposts in the seas saying, in Spanish, "COME THIS WAY".

 

[Apthorpe]

Nobody mentioning the toxicity of lead chromate chemical (used in lead paint) vs bog standard Pb lead?

Absolutely correct. Nor does anyone care about the continued massive use of it and its distribution into the environment by government (which exempted itself from lead paint laws). Clowns have been banging on about what is really a very thin level of scientific evidence about lead ammunition, but none of them who has had a shred of interest in real exposure to toxic lead in the environment. Even the useful idiots among shooters have closed their eyes and brains to the reality of what the risks actually are.

Lead and chromium in European road paints

Lead chromate was commonly employed as a pigment in coloured road markings until restrictions led to the development of safer alternatives. In this st…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Tim.243]

This country also has a ideology too launch lead at whatever flies past, and If they hit it anywhere Its a "Good shot, and one for the bag" being a beater that took nearly all birds home each shoot It was pretty obvious days we had great shots and days we had terrible shots.

Having 15-ish head/neck shot birds, and 30 wishbone area(?) hit birds was lovely, obviously a few hit in the ass end or minced regardless but it bet the days where almost every single bird was hut centermass, I found those ones too always have the most pellets in them usually up by the spine trapped under the skin.

No one has brought up the cost to people connected with large estates where the owners have enough money to just close and won't be bullied into changing. They will pull the plug for the next season keep a few staff and that will be it. God knows what the long in the tooth staff will do who know nothing else. I hate to think who will support them.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Absolutely correct. Nor does anyone care about the continued massive use of it and its distribution into the environment by government (which exempted itself from lead paint laws). Clowns have been banging on about what is really a very thin level of scientific evidence about lead ammunition, but none of them who has had a shred of interest in real exposure to toxic lead in the environment. Even the useful idiots among shooters have closed their eyes and brains to the reality of what the risks actually are.

Lead and chromium in European road paints

Lead chromate was commonly employed as a pigment in coloured road markings until restrictions led to the development of safer alternatives. In this st…

www.sciencedirect.com

I'm glad somebody has their head screwed on

 

[JTO]

I suspect Aluminium has caused more health problems in humans than Lead.

Camelford water poisoning: Aluminium in brain 'beyond belief'

An inquest into the death of a woman who lived in a Cornwall town where the water supply was poisoned in the 1980s hears aluminium levels in her brain were "beyond belief".

www.bbc.co.uk