Interesting open letter concerning the lead shot/ammunition ban
- Thread starter Spear Chucker
- Start date
So not a medical research scientist then and with no direct link to the research carried out. Not quite the picture previously painted and nicotine ā a large complex moleculeā would that be a large complex molecule made up of amino acids ie a protein or a relatively small organic molecule composed of pyridine and pyrrolidine rings ie an alkaloid.
Itās all about credibility and the inability to distinguish between protein and alkaloid casts doubt on your aspirations to be considered an authority on lead shot ingestion induced cancers as previously stated.
Can I ask which cancers you were referring that were linked to lead shot ingestion.
Perhaps when the anti lead shot lobby are able to quantify the harm caused by lead shot ingestion ,and you have every opportunity to do just that by naming the cancers associated with lead shot ingestion and the papers which prove that connection, then everyone will be able to decide whether that harm justifies further lead shot restrictions.
In 2016 neither BASC nor the UK government could find justification in the evidence presented to merit further lead ammunition restrictions and as no further substantial evidence has been presented since then can you tell me the grounds you base your view that lead ammunition should be banned.
As BASC itself as previously stated by C OāG are not calling for a ban perhaps you should consider contacting them with your cast iron evidence for overriding that policy decision you obviously have strong grounds for holding those views when you have called for legislation to make it illegal for lead shot quarry to be left on the ground.
Apologies but Iām no research scientist so not capable of producing a case for showing how harmful or not lead shot game may be when ingested but then neither are you and the German study mentioned earlier did conclude that ā consumption of lead hunted game meat did not show a significant effect on blood lead levels within the group of game meat consumers ā
and ā Although the difference between game meat and no game meat consumers was statistically significant, the difference per se is very low and therefore might biologically not be relevant ā.
So it seems that after all , thank goodness, there is no need for me to prove that the use of lead ammunition entails no significant risk ,the above mentioned study , the absence of clinical cases and the fact that BASC itself does not support a ban seems to indicate no case to answer.
Let us know how you fare on convincing BASC to reverse its policy on opposing any lead ban based on your research sorry your googled information
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Exemptions make no sense whatsoever, you cannot argue that a shot fired by an elite athlete is any less harmful to the environment that one fired by anyone else.
Likewise a 100gr 6mm projectile and 7mm projectile of the same weight.
What is abundantly clear however, is the shooting public are in general voting with their feet on this and avoiding inferior lead alternatives.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I will let you carry on pouring your own vitriol. But I canāt be bothered to respond aby more to your pathetic whining and insinuating words. @admin has already shut down one thread and pulled you up on this.So not a medical research scientist then and with no direct link to the research carried out. Not quite the picture previously painted and nicotine ā a large complex moleculeā would that be a large complex molecule made up of amino acids ie a protein or a relatively small organic molecule composed of pyridine and pyrrolidine rings ie an alkaloid.
Itās all about credibility and the inability to distinguish between protein and alkaloid casts doubt on your aspirations to be considered an authority on lead shot ingestion induced cancers as previously stated.
Can I ask which cancers you were referring that were linked to lead shot ingestion.
Perhaps when the anti lead shot lobby are able to quantify the harm caused by lead shot ingestion ,and you have every opportunity to do just that by naming the cancers associated with lead shot ingestion and the papers which prove that connection, then everyone will be able to decide whether that harm justifies further lead shot restrictions.
In 2016 neither BASC nor the UK government could find justification in the evidence presented to merit further lead ammunition restrictions and as no further substantial evidence has been presented since then can you tell me the grounds you base your view that lead ammunition should be banned.
As BASC itself as previously stated by C OāG are not calling for a ban perhaps you should consider contacting them with your cast iron evidence for overriding that policy decision you obviously have strong grounds for holding those views when you have called for legislation to make it illegal for lead shot quarry to be left on the ground.
Apologies but Iām no research scientist so not capable of producing a case for showing how harmful or not lead shot game may be when ingested but then neither are you and the German study mentioned earlier did conclude that ā consumption of lead hunted game meat did not show a significant effect on blood lead levels within the group of game meat consumers ā
and ā Although the difference between game meat and no game meat consumers was statistically significant, the difference per se is very low and therefore might biologically not be relevant ā.
So it seems that after all , thank goodness, there is no need for me to prove that the use of lead ammunition entails no significant risk ,the above mentioned study , the absence of clinical cases and the fact that BASC itself does not support a ban seems to indicate no case to answer.
Let us know how you fare on convincing BASC to reverse its policy on opposing any lead ban based on your research sorry your googled information
jimmer.13
Well-Known Member
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
I believe that Ruger makes a good point, when it comes to restricting our civil liberties the grounds for doing so deserve to be subject to the closest scrutiny, whichever side of the discussion you are on.
Thereās no bitterness in my reply to your post just a question for clarity when the issues are being complicated by unsubstantiated claims. That you choose not to reply to the points raised in my post is your choice but in a subject as important as this to the future of shooting and field sports in general it is necessary that any decisions made have a sound basis and I think that a sound basis does not exist for further lead shot restrictions and BASC is in agreement with that hence their opposition to a lead ban.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Have a read of HSE opinion and the ministerās letter and they outline the reason. You will read that their view is that, unfortunately, past behaviour of shooters gives them no confidence that clay pigeon grounds will be able to manage the lead shot recovery etc, and that shooters wonāt simply use clay pigeon cartridges on live quarry, hence the ban on lead shot for clay pigeon shooting.
I havenāt a clue what the position of the CPSA etc is on the ban, and whether or not they lobbied on behalf of members.
I shoot clays occasionally to keep my eye in. I have used steel shot on occasions and the clays seem to break just as well. When it comes to competition, provided everyone is on an equal footing in terms of equipment and ammunition, the sport remains a matter of individual skill as it should be.
The NRA in rifle shooting has been able to demonstrate that lead bullets are captured in butts and part of normal range operations is to recover such lead bullets. Going forward ranges will need to ensure they adequate means to capture and remove the lead as required, have written procedures in place and to have a named range officer to ensure this happens.
This will allow target shooters to continue using non expanding target bullets for use on ranges with appropriate measures to capture lead bullets.
If a club or range operator cannot provide such facilities, then non lead ammunition will have to be used. Whether or not this happens is a decision for each club and range operator
That makes for crap law, we do not ban alcohol due to the drunks who abuse it, or ban vehicles because some cannot be trusted not to speed. That is a very poor excuse of a reason to ban lead shot for clay shooting.
Guess the first time someone is caught after the ban using lead bullets on live quarry, marked up for target use only they will ban all rifles.
Then the area clay grounds operate over is tiny compared to game shoots so impact on the environment is negligible and certainly a lot less than millions of game birds released every year.
As for ranges, limit the caliber to .22 and call it a zeroing range then no need to capture and collect the bullets
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
not sure, probably 3 years ago
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Quite likely they will add further bans and restrictions, given behaviour of the few.That makes for crap law, we do not ban alcohol due to the drunks who abuse it, or ban vehicles because some cannot be trusted not to speed. That is a very poor excuse of a reason to ban lead shot for clay shooting.
Guess the first time someone is caught after the ban using lead bullets on live quarry, marked up for target use only they will ban all rifles.
Then the area clay grounds operate over is tiny compared to game shoots so impact on the environment is negligible and certainly a lot less than millions of game birds released every year.
As for ranges, limit the caliber to .22 and call it a zeroing range then no need to capture and collect the bullets
There is a prohibition on driving under the influence of alcohol. My father complained continually about it. In the 1950ās he would happily drive to play Rugby, have 8 pints and then drive home. Thatās what everyone did. Late 80ās and 90ās many still did.
Nowadays if you get caught drink driving you treated as a fool, and no one has any sympathy. But plenty still do drink and drive.
Alcohol causes huge problems, and a significant percentage of hospital time is due to alcohol related issues. I donāt have the figures to hand. I suppose at least the alcohol duties at least go someway in covering the costs of treating all the drunken accidents and liver failures etc caused by over indulgence of alcohol.
A lot of us are in the same situation @Conor O'Gorman . BASC is totally out of touch with the common shooter / deerstalker. I have BASC membership but wouldn't choose it if I had an option. BASC's virtue signalling is sickening.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thanks what prompted you to leave?
Well thought out response how long did it take you to think of that ?
terrier1
Well-Known Member
And there's proof that Steel is crap if elite athletes won't use it it's not good enough for me to attempt to humainly kill a bird at a reasonable distance.
Ah so youāve no evidence so want to keep quiet ? Shouldāve thought of that a long time ago
So now you are satisfied he has no evidence, there wonāt be any more need to ask for it
Oh no I firmly believe if youāre going to spout science and preach to others you should have absolutely iron clad evidence Iām afraid you may be happy with opinions but Iām notSo now you are satisfied he has no evidence, there wonāt be any more need to ask for it
Oh no otherwise he wouldāve posted it wouldnāt he ? And by evidence I mean a scientific study that conclusively proves illness in humans from lead shot game
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