New, old 410 bolt action shotgun

[bobo]

Here in Denmark we hunters, are asked to help reducing the number of Cormorants, as there is way too many of them.
When hunting ducks from motor boat, the Cormorants usually keep 2 shotgun shot range distance from the boat.
when fishing on the other hand, they often get real close, 15-20 meters is normal.

So I decided to get an old shotgun (it will quickly rust because of the saltwater) to keep in the boat, for shooting them when fishing.
Heard they had an old cheap Mossberg 20G bolt action at the gunshop, so went to have a look at it.
By the time I got there it was sold, so had a look at what else they got, and came across this little 410 bolt action, tube magazined thing.

The price was right cheap 850 dkr (About £100) and something my boy of 12 years will like, so I bought it, even whitout having much practical experince with that caliber.
As it is smoothbore I can take it home right away dont need to wait for a cartificate, so will be testing it tomorrow.

Now I am sitting here and wondering, when looking at the tiny cartriges:
Can they kill a Comorant at 15-20 meters distance?
.410s seems to be somewhat more popular in UK, how large birds do you shoot with them?

 

[VSS]

.410 is good fun, but you either need to be very close or a very good shot. If it'll take a 3" cartridge then you've got range not dissimilar to a 12g, but with so few shot in your pattern you've got to be good. They're often quite tightly choked in my experience, to keep the shot pattern tight.
I have shot all sizes of things with a .410, from cows and horses down to rats! Never shot a cormorant, but plenty of pigeons over decoys, bolting rabbits and roosting pheasants.

 

[Grannysmith]

I use 410 now as shoulders finished.
Shot a lot of duck pigeon crows and pheasant with it.
Just need to be a little more precise and keep range down to -40 mtrs
You will love it!

 

[Mountain Bug]

I've seen a black bear killed with a .410 and #6 shot. Velocities are the same but with a smaller shot load and smaller pattern. Takes a bit of tuning your skills but will kill a cormorant just fine.

Scott

 

[Smellydog]

What choke is in that Stevens?
Shot geese and fox's with a 410.

 

[enfieldspares]

Load it with 3" #7 shot or even 7 1/2" shot. Pattern fails before penetration and it won't take much shot to kill (or disable) a comorant such that you can then get within a certain killing distance.

 

[bobo]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.
After reading that, I'm no longer worried about it dropping a Cormorant, the ones we shot last year seemed to be a lot easier to drop than mallards.

What choke is in that Stevens?
Shot geese and fox's with a 410.

It measures 10.4mm right in front of the chamber (fits 0.41 Inch), and 10.15 at the muzzle.
As far as I can calculate from these numbers it is either full or very close to full.
Unfortunately, we are not allowed to use lead shot here, and the store only had steel shot cartridges.
Next time I come by, hopefully they'll have Bismuth back on the shelf, they come relative close to lead performance.
The alternative is to use Heavyshot, but they're so expensive that you almost have to give a kidney as a deposit just to get the store to take them out of the ammo cabinet.
Eventually I plan to load them myself when I have enough cases. I can make the reloading tools myself.

 

[Smellydog]

Put the barrel in a lathe and turn the choke out.

 

[Cyres]

I do wish we could shoot cormorants in England. Absolute pest.
D

 

[bullet chucker]

It is a Savage Arms Manufacture and is proofed for 2 1/2" & 3" shells according to the proof marks on the action and BNP 5 Tons so safe enough.

BC.

 

[Smellydog]

It is a Savage Arms Manufacture and is proofed for 2 1/2" & 3" shells according to the proof marks on the action and BNP 5 Tons so safe enough.

BC.

And if it's full choke?

 

[Nimrod1960]

As it takes 3” you will have no problem with the greasy pests even 30/40 meters away.

I have used the Fiocchi 3” 6’s in mine and found them very punchy on crows.

Have fun with a great little round , more importantly that gun will be great for your son to learn all the safe handling drills applicable to a rifle.

 

[Nimrod1960]

Also

Please give us some feedback on the performance of steel shot in a .410 on live quarry.

You may have seen steel shot is a “lively” topic on here.

 

[bobo]

Just been out shooting a few shots with it with the kids. A joy to shoot with the low recoil, also for the children, even my little boy of 9 tried a few shots.
2 shots on cardboard, Winchester and Federal steel shot, showed fairly poor shot patterns from both cartriges, but that's probably because steel shot doesn't like tight chokes.

Today the farm owner invited us into the dairy cow barn where my big boy of 12 years shot 2 pigeons, which dropped immediately, he is now hooked on hunting.
Am impressed by how much power there is in these small cartridges.
No longer doubt that it will be ok for dropping cormorants, but will probably not try it on horses or black bears, at lest not the first couble of days.

Next time work allows some free time, and the weather/wind are right, I'll sail out fishing. Then the little Stevens will help give the cormorants a surprise.
I'll probably shoot the first cormorants with steel, and will give feedback on my experiences with them here in the thread when I had a try.
Experience from 30 years of steel shoting, says that steel has reduced effective range compared to heavier shot materials.
It won't be a problem for me to remove or just reduce the choke, but I'm thinking of testing bismuth first, once the shop gets them back.
After all, it is easy to remove or reduce the fixed choke, but very difficult to cut new internal thread for modern choke bushings if it needs to be recreated.



I have no doubt that tungsten shot performance will be like lead, and bismuth will be close to lead.
The problem is that tungsten is insanely expensive (3-400% more than steel), and bismuth (only around 30% more expensive than steel) was sold out in .410 the day I was in the shop, .410 is simply not popular here so they only have limited types of them.

We have been forced to use steel (or other non toxic pellets) here since 1994 and never had serius accidents because of steelshot, so we are not afraid of the safety issue anymore.
So I am not concerned about the safety of steel shot, even if it is full choke, but experience here shows that tight chokes designed for lead shot give a poor shot pattern with steel.
If we by modern guns here the Chokes are designed for steel shot with different cone zones to provide good shot patterns with steel.

 

[Smellydog]

dairy cow barn

Steel building?

 

[bobo]

Steel building?

Concrete end walls with open sides (net runs automatic down when cold wind), and a fiber concrete roof, cows move around freely and goes to the milking robot by themself.
Everything is held in place with steel beams that the pigeons sit on.

 

[Mountain Bug]

I should explain so that no one seeks to shoot a bear with a .410. My neighbor some 20 plus years ago had a bear on his porch and didn't know what to do. He was, in my opinion, terrified despite trying to put on a brave face. Somehow (I wasn't present for most of the excitement) he scared the bear into a tree. He then took a shot in the dark, literally, up into the tree and the bear fell to the ground.
This was the point at which he called me to come over because in his words, The bear had fallen and was laying on the ground knocked out and he didn't know what to do.
I came over "loaded for bear haha" only to find a bear that was dead as a dodo.
My headlamp post-mortem found a single pellet in his heart (there may have been more though).
He (neighbor) was beside himself and told me that he was just trying to scare the bear and didn't think there was a risk of death because "it was just a .410!".


Scott

 

[Smellydog]

Concrete end walls with open sides (net runs automatic down when cold wind), and a fiber concrete roof, cows move around freely and goes to the milking robot by themself.
Everything is held in place with steel beams that the pigeons sit on.

Watch out for steel shot bouncing back at you!

 

[Heym SR20]

Just been out shooting a few shots with it with the kids. A joy to shoot with the low recoil, also for the children, even my little boy of 9 tried a few shots.
2 shots on cardboard, Winchester and Federal steel shot, showed fairly poor shot patterns from both cartriges, but that's probably because steel shot doesn't like tight chokes.

Today the farm owner invited us into the dairy cow barn where my big boy of 12 years shot 2 pigeons, which dropped immediately, he is now hooked on hunting.
Am impressed by how much power there is in these small cartridges.
No longer doubt that it will be ok for dropping cormorants, but will probably not try it on horses or black bears, at lest not the first couble of days.

Next time work allows some free time, and the weather/wind are right, I'll sail out fishing. Then the little Stevens will help give the cormorants a surprise.
I'll probably shoot the first cormorants with steel, and will give feedback on my experiences with them here in the thread when I had a try.
Experience from 30 years of steel shoting, says that steel has reduced effective range compared to heavier shot materials.
It won't be a problem for me to remove or just reduce the choke, but I'm thinking of testing bismuth first, once the shop gets them back.
After all, it is easy to remove or reduce the fixed choke, but very difficult to cut new internal thread for modern choke bushings if it needs to be recreated.



I have no doubt that tungsten shot performance will be like lead, and bismuth will be close to lead.
The problem is that tungsten is insanely expensive (3-400% more than steel), and bismuth (only around 30% more expensive than steel) was sold out in .410 the day I was in the shop, .410 is simply not popular here so they only have limited types of them.

We have been forced to use steel (or other non toxic pellets) here since 1994 and never had serius accidents because of steelshot, so we are not afraid of the safety issue anymore.
So I am not concerned about the safety of steel shot, even if it is full choke, but experience here shows that tight chokes designed for lead shot give a poor shot pattern with steel.
If we by modern guns here the Chokes are designed for steel shot with different cone zones to provide good shot patterns with steel.

Good to hear that steel shot works well enough in the 410, and that it is commercially available. I hope that UK shotgun cartridge manufacturers start producing them here in the UK.

410’s are deadly little guns. They are certainly not toys. As a 12 year old i shot a canada goose with one. A skein came over me at tree top height, I swung through and one dropped dead on the spot. I had hit it in the head. 410’s are regularly used to dispatch sheep and cattle - at close range the shot really acts as a ball of shot.

For youngsters a very good demonstration is to shoot into soft ground from a few metres. Depth of hole even from a 410 is pretty impressive.

 

[Lee the Gun]

A 410 with 3" shells is deadly up close and personal (get rid of the standard full choke if that's what it has).
Back in the mid 80's I shot dozens and dozens of cormorants using a 12-bore Marlin Goose gun with 3" magnums loaded with BB's. I soon learn't that cormorants are tough birds, so keep things "real" when it comes to the range that you're going to be shooting at them with that 410.