The 3000 fps .303 pom.

PSE Composites Limited - The next level Rifle Stocks
Given that the 303 cartridge case is similar in size to a 308, should not be that difficult to get powder to give good velocities. The P14 is a strong Mauser type action and was used for years as the basis for rifles such as 300 H&H Magnum (3,200 fps with a 150gn bullet) - indeed I recall seeing an old H&H catalogue offering two versions of their Super Thirty rifle. One with a genuine Mauser action, and then a more affordable one on an Enfield P14 Action.

Given plenty of barrel length, and modern high energy smokeless powders of appropriate burn rate 3,000 should achievable out of a decently made 303 case.

Going back to the Lee Enfield, plenty of 308s were built on Lee Enfield actions - the sniper rifles, enfield envoys etc. but I suspect pressures to get 3000 fps with a 150 gn bullet whether its a 303 or 308 would be pushing it.

Edit: a quick bit of googling - a thread from a few years ago by @enfieldspares

enfieldspares

Thread 'Holland & Holland 1958 Catalogue PDF Link'

Happy New Year 2019 to All. Here's a useful link I found over New Year:

http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/84138/1/Holand_Holand_1958.pdf
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I can’t say what the pressures are but after a lot of careful measuring and inspection of the brass cases, before and after firing, I consider the velocities that I recorded in my rifle with the standard 26” military barrel to be safe maximums.

"Yee-haw" Would be a suitable inscription on his gravestone.

Rifles will often withstand several overpressure loads until the fatigued metal gives up. Once fatigued sufficiently it could let go at any time, and not just during overloads. Rest in pieces.
 
moeggesit said:
Once fatigued sufficiently it could let go at any time, and not just during overloads. Rest in pieces.
Click to expand...
40 odd years ago I swapped a .22 magnum for an SMLE 'three oh" and home load ammo.
I walked outside with it and fired two rounds of the home loads into the lawn.
On checking the cases I noticed that the primers were as flat as a schitt carters hat....I knew that the rifle itself wasn't a good robust one for hot loads and swapped it for a pair of Super Oscars.
 
moeggesit said:
Rifles will often withstand several overpressure loads until the fatigued metal gives up. Once fatigued sufficiently it could let go at any time, and not just during overloads. Rest in pieces.
Click to expand...
I'd like to know which study you based that comment on?
Proofing a firearm is to check if anything moved or yielded to pressure. If they pass it's because nothing moved. If nothing moved no fatigue can take place.
Proof loads are much higher than even hot service loads.
AO improve case increase case volume. That lowers pressures allowing for more fuel to be added to bring the combo back up to pressure with a net gain in velocity.

Finally, p14 actions and barrel's can handle much larger cases than a 303.
No "yeehaw" involved at all.
 
There are still a lot of P 14 based sporters chambered in 303 Epps Improved , and other Epps designed cartridges , kicking around here . Not surprising as the cartridge was developed by Ellwood Epps , a Canadian gunsmith . I've owned a few myself over the years and have a few friends who still do . The above stated velocities are at the top end of the cartridges capacity , but are not dangerous . One friend of mine has been shooting loads just shy of the above listed through his Epps built P14 for about 25 years with no problems . The Enfield P14 and M17 actions are immensely strong designs ( and one of my favourite Mauser derivatives ) and the suitably modified actions are still used here as the basis for large caliber , high pressure cartridge , dangerous game rifles . The only limiting factor with the 303 EI is bullet selection . Most standard cup and core designs won't hold up at closer ranges due to the velocities being higher than the bullets were designed for . I used mine for Moose ( and one Black Bear ) loaded with Norma 215 gr round noses . They are no longer available , I gave my last box to Muir some years ago when I paid him a visit . The Barnes 150 gr monolith is a really good bullet in this cartidge , but I'd prefer a 180 for the big stuff . It's an interesting , and capable , old cartidge in a classic old rifle ................ I'm in . Thanks for posting John .

AB
 
Smellydog said:
I'd like to know which study you based that comment on?
Proofing a firearm is to check if anything moved or yielded to pressure. If they pass it's because nothing moved. If nothing moved no fatigue can take place.
Proof loads are much higher than even hot service loads.
AO improve case increase case volume. That lowers pressures allowing for more fuel to be added to bring the combo back up to pressure with a net gain in velocity.

Finally, p14 actions and barrel's can handle much larger cases than a 303.
No "yeehaw" involved at all.
Click to expand...
How did you determine that “hot” loads are lower than proof loads? Proof loads is 125% service load pressure (not powder charge, which would be significantly higher pressure), and hot loads is anything more than service loads. I have seen two firearms give up because of “hot” loads, the pressure of one was calculated (quickload) retrospectively at approximately 1700% of service load (bit more than proof) and while the other unknown (but the shooter did not think it was a particularly high load 😆).

The chamber shape of Epps, as an example, do indeed reduce the pressure for the same powder charge but pressure increase when you add more powder to increase velocity.

The OP article states that the pressure is unknown.

Strength of materials 101
Metal fatigue is the weakening and eventual failure of metal due to repeated stress cycles, even when the stress levels are below the material's ultimate strength. This progressive damage involves the slow formation and growth of cracks under cyclic loading, such as bending or vibration. Over time, these cracks can propagate until they reach a critical size, leading to rapid, catastrophic failure of the metal part.

It’s worth reading post-failure analysis reports, there are a few about and usually careless loads cause immediate failure, but not always.
 
moeggesit said:
How did you determine that “hot” loads are lower than proof loads? Proof loads is 125% service load pressure (not powder charge, which would be significantly higher pressure), and hot loads is anything more than service loads. I have seen two firearms give up because of “hot” loads, the pressure of one was calculated (quickload) retrospectively at approximately 1700% of service load (bit more than proof) and while the other unknown (but the shooter did not think it was a particularly high load 😆).
Click to expand...
I don't see how this comment has any bearing on the original post.
If you or your friends don't know how to study powders and cross reference known data and the many cartridges already in existence then maybe your experience was inevitable.


moeggesit said:
The chamber shape of Epps, as an example, do indeed reduce the pressure for the same powder charge but pressure increase when you add more powder to increase velocity.
Click to expand...
I already said that??
moeggesit said:
Strength of materials 101
Metal fatigue is the weakening and eventual failure of metal due to repeated stress cycles, even when the stress levels are below the material's ultimate strength. This progressive damage involves the slow formation and growth of cracks under cyclic loading, such as bending or vibration. Over time, these cracks can propagate until they reach a critical size, leading to rapid, catastrophic failure of the metal part.
Click to expand...
I already said that??
After proofing measurements are taken and a comparison is made with the measurements taken prior proof.
If nothing changes there is no stress, no stress equal no fatigue, no fatigue means no failure. No failure means no catastrophe.

Still worried? There are many other hobbies that don't include high pressure vessels 👍
 
Smellydog said:
2535 Winchester John.
1895 Winchesters.
BLR's
New Henry's.
Click to expand...
I respect your love for them Smelly but for me and the 30/30 I used so many years ago its a resounding NO...

Give me my oft shunned brand Parker Hale (9.3 x 64) used recently as seen below resting against a termite mound.

9.3 ants.webp
 
Smellydog said:
I don't see how this comment has any bearing on the original post.
If you or your friends don't know how to study powders and cross reference known data and the many cartridges already in existence then maybe your experience was inevitable.



I already said that??

I already said that??
After proofing measurements are taken and a comparison is made with the measurements taken prior proof.
If nothing changes there is no stress, no stress equal no fatigue, no fatigue means no failure. No failure means no catastrophe.

Still worried? There are many other hobbies that don't include high pressure vessels 👍
Click to expand...
I’m not worried for myself, but run ranges long enough and you’ll see that there is more than enough idiots around who thinks it’s okay to exceed maximums and endure the consequences.

With that in mind your comments is a little ignorant since, just because it did not break on the last shot does not make it a safe load.

With the best will in the world you cannot guarantee that all loads will have the same pressure (standard deviation) and if and component is changed (case, primer, etc) you end up with a totally different pressure. The next person comes along using the same “load” and kills himself.

The OP article states that the pressure is unknown. Or are you that one person in the world who meticulously measure every case ejected before taking another shot?

Ever wondered why proof loads is a little higher than maximum service loads?
 
moeggesit said:
I’m not worried for myself, but run ranges long enough and you’ll see that there is more than enough idiots around who thinks it’s okay to exceed maximums and endure the consequences.
Click to expand...
Tell me about the consequences you have witnessed. How many injuries did you personally witness?
Since when were you awarded the lofty position of idiot judge with such a sweeping brush?

moeggesit said:
With that in mind your comments is a little ignorant since, just because it did not break on the last shot does not make it a safe load.
Click to expand...
With that in mind I'm beginning to think you are little presumptuous and have appointed yourself to expert level.

moeggesit said:
With the best will in the world you cannot guarantee that all loads will have the same pressure (standard deviation) and if and component is changed (case, primer, etc) you end up with a totally different pressure. The next person comes along using the same “load” and kills himself.
Click to expand...
How many have you known that killed have themselves? Also, who are you quoting?
moeggesit said:
The OP article states that the pressure is unknown. Or are you that one person in the world who meticulously measure every case ejected before taking another shot?
Click to expand...
I have measured many case to assess loads but not every one.

I'm still puzzled how all your comments have any bearing on John's account of an improved 303.
Perhaps you think no one should reload because let's face it , most reloads are an unknown. For the life of me I don't see why you have such a condescending attitude about it.

I recommend knitting...with safety glasses.
 
John Gryphon said:
sportingshooter.com.au

A .303 at over 3000fps? Meet the .303 Epps Improved in a custom P14 - Sporting Shooter

This custom P14 Enfield rifle chambered in .303 Epps Improved can shoot 150 grain bullets at over 3000fps with 1/4 MOA accuracy!
sportingshooter.com.au sportingshooter.com.au
Click to expand...
A 1/4 MOA? There's a guy in the USA with a YouTube channel who has on several occasions challenged people to real world accuracy shoots with any rifle or calibre they care to bring along. Most fail the 1 MOA and this rifle claims to be 1/4 MOA???
Yeh, sure it is.
 
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