Vaccines

Buchan

Well-Known Member
I'm putting this here as I don't want to intrude on the sad loss of a member's dog, but there were some statements in the thread that cannot go unchallenged.

There is a lot of chat on the internet about vaccines, especially the L4 vaccine for dogs. Most of it is just that, chat plus scare stories. The L4 vaccine was introduced because there has been a change in the leptopsirosis types present in the UK, millions of doses have been used and the real incidence of adverse reactions is tiny. There are no reports in the vet press, nor on the vet social media sites that would make one realise there is a problem. When reports come in, the link to vaccines is very tenuous and a survey done in 2006 showed no association of vaccination with the timing of the onset of disease.

Vaccines do not do more harm than good, they are probably the biggest single contributor to imporvements in animal and human health. Parvo virus and Distemper are almost unknown for many young vets. I dealt with lines of puppies destined to die back in the early 80s.
There are legitimate questions on the frequency of vaccination, why humans get one dose for life and animals don't. Some of this is due to the testing of the product, it wouldn't be right to keep exposing a series of dogs to a potentially fatal disease to see if still works. So we boost every year, or every three years depending on the product. It is highly probable that the immunity to Parvo, Distemper and Hepatitis is lifelong, we just don't know. Lepto is a problem, like many bacterial vaccines, it's a poor vaccine and to maintain immunity, the immune system needs re-priming. This mimics natural, "field exposure," which is exactly how how the immune system is reprimed.
You can do titre tests to see if there is still immunity, but you need to be precise with which test, as exposure antibodies are not protective antibodies.
I boost my dogs annually. It's less hassle and cheaper than titre testing and there is no real evidence that the boosters cause harm.
 

Note the adverse reaction rate is less than 2 in 10000 doses and less than 7 in 10000 doses for L4. The difference is not statistically significant and an adverse reaction can be something as simple as a skin lump.
 
Just a small point, some vaccines, such as the Rabies one that my dog has to have boosted for his pet's passport are good for three years, as with several others. Yet the large corporate vet's chain we used to use still keeps sending us almost threatening letters saying that he should come back for a booster every year, if we want to keep the passport valid. Nonsense. It's 3-yearly. Whether that is actually necessary is a moot point, but thems the rules.

Needless to say we have changed to a different sole-practice vet who understands the differences and vaccinates according to best practice, some annually, some every three years. And has warned us about the ones that sometimes barely work, kennel cough for example, as with the 'flu jab and pneumonia for humans. The dog likes and trusts him, he has known him and his history for several years now, and has even seen him out-of hours a couple of times when we were really worried, no problem. Nothing like the "big" vets. One of them even insisted that he was double-muzzled before even being prepared to look at him, she was obviously just scared of dogs, in the wrong job I think, and the dog sensed that, as they do, so it all went pear shaped and we left. Doubtless re-enforcing her phobia.

The dog gets every vaccine recommended, I believe in them.

And our dog-walker/carer (not a kennels, she has an extension set up to keep up to six, which is more luxurious than my living room) needs to see an up-to-date history to comply with her license conditions. Sometimes we do have to leave our dog with her for a few days, and are re-assured that the others he mixes with are similarly vaccinated. He really loves his stays with her, sometimes we think that he likes her, and her staff, more than us, she now employs five others, he can't wait to jump into their vans. She's picky though, and won't accept badly behaved dogs. Why should she, she has potentially much more business than she could handle, if she wasn't very selective ?
 
Buchan I agree that vaccines and other medicines are on the whole better than not having them BUT adverse reactions do happen with all medicines. I am the qualified person for pharmacovigilance for a prescription only medicine for humans which in laymans terms means I look after collecting and reporting all the adverse reactions to our product. Based on this we create the pack insert which warns users regarding warnings, contraindications and potential side effects (adverse reactions). Even a pack of paracetamol has this. The MHRA inspect us on a regular basis and we have to have everything in place to ensure we are following the legislation. The Vet Medicine Directorate has a similar system. They are good it is all to avoid another thalidomide or Vioxx situation. The more data we can collect the better we can keep patients safe.

My experience is that medics and vets are generally a bit lax about reporting adverse events because individually they only see them once in a blue moon and think it wasn't the medicine. When you collect the data from many sources and put it all together it gives a different picture. One of the adverse events with our treatment is transient stroke like events, usually lasting only a few minutes but frightening when it happens. This happen once in 10,000 treatments or more. So most medics never experience this with a patient. But I know it happens and it is on our warnings. We also get anaphylactic reactions at about the same rate and some have ended in death.

Where am I going with this. Above it says the ADRs to L4 are about 7 in 10,000 but if it is your dog and it is a serious event that is not good. If you believe your animal has had a reaction you should report it to the company's adverse reactions department yourself. They will log it and collate the data and it helps them build a better picture of what might be happening e.g. maybe some breeds react more often. This data can then be added to the warnings.

My own personal experience is that we had a very bonzy Patterdale cross puppy that was a typical fun loving thing, ate anything and took on the big dog. About 4-5 days after her first vaccine L4 she went very quiet at one point didn't move off the sofa for a couple of days and didn't eat. We got pretty worried but she came round but has never been the same. She is now very food fussy and compared to before can be quite withdrawn. Nothing else in her routine changed apart from the injection. In my job we would call that a very probably causal link, which in English means I am 99.9% positive it was the injection but you can never be 100% sure. The vets didn't think it was the injection and probably didn't report back to the company which is why if you are in a similar situation please report it to the company yourself.
 
For humans, there is the adverse reactions yellow-card scheme. Filled in two myself (little known fact, you can report it yourself, if you think that anyone will take any notice), GPs IME don't want to rock the boat..

That scrap of paper in the pill box is worth less than the paper that it is written on IMO. It's just a backside covering exercise listing everything that they could think of.

If prescribed something special for yourself, look to somewhere like drugs.com and take a (none-paranoid) view of how that might be affecting you. Statins are a good example, dished out like sweeties. GPs incentivised to do so also, they get a bonus (£50/year I think) for everyone on their list that they can persuade to take them, basically anyone middle-aged or older.They crippled my dad, until he stopped. Blood levels of this and that nothwithstanding. He eats meat, drinks alcohol, as do I.

If the drugs business were allowed to have their way, we'd all be being given a "poly pill" once into "middle age" to ward off goodness knows what. Was very heavily pushed a while ago. As with opioid painkillers, supposedly innocuous, far from it.

For your animals, well find a good vet and trust them.
 
Was just about to start a thread about this but then saw @Buchan already has.

Just returning from first class with my pup. The teacher, whom I've known for 20+ years and respect, has just warned us against lepto 4 vaccination. In the last 3 weeks, they've known 2 collies die after the lepto 4 vaccine & post mortem to confirm. Death occurred after 2 days of intense seizures.

They know what i do & knows dog will be on farm, but still said more risk from the vaccine than from the disease... They did say that vets can order the lepto 2 from Europe which is apparently safer?

Our farm isn't overrun with rats but it's a farm, there are rats. I just want to do right by my pup. Any more updated info @Buchan ?
Thanks
 
That's sad for those owners. I can't tell if that was the vaccine that caused the seizures, there are other causes and I don't have enough information from the description. In my experience epilepsy is relatively common in collies so it might just be a coincidence.
As I said in the original post, there is a lot of inaccurate internet chat on L4. I'd have no concerns about giving it to my dog, nor recommending it for others. This is a decent, unbiased review. It's not a full scientific review but careful work by someone without commercial links but with an interest in scientific validity. Leptospirosis Vaccine: A Silent Killer?
I don't know if European L2 is still available, but I would be concerned about cold chain for a single dose through the post.
 
That's sad for those owners. I can't tell if that was the vaccine that caused the seizures, there are other causes and I don't have enough information from the description. In my experience epilepsy is relatively common in collies so it might just be a coincidence.
As I said in the original post, there is a lot of inaccurate internet chat on L4. I'd have no concerns about giving it to my dog, nor recommending it for others. This is a decent, unbiased review. It's not a full scientific review but careful work by someone without commercial links but with an interest in scientific validity. Leptospirosis Vaccine: A Silent Killer?
I don't know if European L2 is still available, but I would be concerned about cold chain for a single dose through the post.
Thanks for that mate. Since getting home & checking her card she's actually already had L4.

Do you if certain breeds are more susceptible to vaccine side effects?
 
Thanks for that mate. Since getting home & checking her card she's actually already had L4.

Do you if certain breeds are more susceptible to vaccine side effects?
There's lots of stories of certain breed being susceptible, those breeding the "savannah cats" seem to be overrepresented here.

On the rare occasions I have had a vaccine reaction - usually immediate. I've reassessed what they need, sometimes splitting doses as needed
 
Was just about to start a thread about this but then saw @Buchan already has.

Just returning from first class with my pup. The teacher, whom I've known for 20+ years and respect, has just warned us against lepto 4 vaccination. In the last 3 weeks, they've known 2 collies die after the lepto 4 vaccine & post mortem to confirm. Death occurred after 2 days of intense seizures.

They know what i do & knows dog will be on farm, but still said more risk from the vaccine than from the disease... They did say that vets can order the lepto 2 from Europe which is apparently safer?

Our farm isn't overrun with rats but it's a farm, there are rats. I just want to do right by my pup. Any more updated info @Buchan ?
Thanks
Any chance those collies were also wormed or flea treated around the time they were vaccinated? Would be very interested to see the PM reports.

Had a client once who had a litter she wanted L2 vaccs for, daughter didn't care and was pro L4. In the event we didn't have enough L2 for the whole litter so owner consented to using L4 for some. The only one with a potential ADR was one which had the L2.
 
Any chance those collies were also wormed or flea treated around the time they were vaccinated? Would be very interested to see the PM reports.

Had a client once who had a litter she wanted L2 vaccs for, daughter didn't care and was pro L4. In the event we didn't have enough L2 for the whole litter so owner consented to using L4 for some. The only one with a potential ADR was one which had the L2.
Hmm I can't be certain on the flea, but I know they wouldn't have been wormed with anything containing ivermectin.
 
Hmm I can't be certain on the flea, but I know they wouldn't have been wormed with anything containing ivermectin.
The MDR1 gene makes them susceptible to a lot more than ivermectin. I'm curious how you can be so certain of that regarding flea/worm Tx when your post suggests this you've heard this at best second or third hand?
 
The MDR1 gene makes them susceptible to a lot more than ivermectin. I'm curious how you can be so certain of that regarding flea/worm Tx when your post suggests this you've heard this at best second or third hand?
Because the owners were members of a local collie group who are stringent on not using ivermectin based products.
 
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Any chance you can get a copy of the PME reports?
Doubtful but I can text the trainer- what would you be doing with your findings?

Just to add, I have no dog in this fight (pardon pun), im not on a particular side. I was unaware of the claims about issues with the vaccine (my old dog had initial core as pup then absolutely no vaccine for next 14 years)
 
Doubtful but I can text the trainer- what would you be doing with your findings?

Just to add, I have no dog in this fight (pardon pun), im not on a particular side. I was unaware of the claims about issues with the vaccine (my old dog had initial core as pup then absolutely no vaccine for next 14 years)
I'm a vet so am curious. Heard lots of anecdotes about adverse reactions from people over the years and almost none have PME or proper investigation done so would like to see the evidence to be informed. I've also had a few people claim PMEs were done but never substantiate it. Basically if there's evidence I want to see it so I can reassess my own perspective if appropriate.
 
This photo was taken on 9 October 2017 of my fit but rather mad springer Maggie . She caught & kill this rat & gave it to me like she would a pheasant duck or whatever.
She died 7 days after this photo was taken leptospirosis
She broke my heart …
Never had them boosted she was 7 years old & in her prime luckily I have a pup of her
All my dogs are given boosters now
 

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