Latest article on lead micro and nano particles in deer and grouse

[GlennUK]

I’m never going to dispute the fact lead is toxic.
That said I keep reading ‘There is no safe level of lead’.
You acknowledge the fact lead levels are higher in game eaters in your statement………well unless these game eaters are dead then I would say there has to be a tolerance and so the ‘No safe level’ is a typical lefty wokey anti shooting extreme scare message to influence.

The problem we all have is that lead poisoning does not necessarily cause obvious effects, the effects are chronic in nature. Individually in the absence of investigations we will not know what our lead burden is and what damage may be going on.

'No safe limit' is a scientific/medical term telling you not to eat/consume lead, it did not come about because off the proposed ban on lead for shooting I am afraid.

 

[kenbro]

The problem we all have is that lead poisoning does not necessarily cause obvious effects, the effects are chronic in nature. Individually in the absence of investigations we will not know what our lead burden is and what damage may be going on.

'No safe limit' is a scientific/medical term telling you not to eat/consume lead, it did not come about because off the proposed ban on lead for shooting I am afraid.

An old chestnut, I know, but will they ever get round to banning the lead pipes still in use, or using lead on the roofs of building, or does lead not get into water by contact?
KB.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Its somewhat ironic talking about trying to argue with idiots.

If you understand that the scientific literature indicates that lead is harmful and a cumulative poison, then it is somewhat odd, counter intuitive to suggest that adding lead to your diet in any form does no harm.

If you have evidence that lead is either beneficial or benign to human health by all means post it.

Assuming that no one is arguing that lead has beneficial effects (pauses for a shout from the back!!) the only reasonable question is whether ingesting it is likely on balance to be good or bad for your health, whatever its source.

The anecdotal stories about no harm being done are just that, stories. Anecdotes may be helpful in pointing one where to look but of themselves are not evidence, at least in any scientific sense.

Saying x has eaten lead shot game for years and has not been harmed is not evidence of the effects (or lack of effects) of lead consumed in this, or any other way. About the only thing one case say about x is they are alive and appear in good health or not as the case may be.

The fact you may not notice the impact because its effects are not obvious to you, does not mean that those effects are not there.

As for those who say copper is ineffective, I would argue that hitting your quarry in the right spot will always be effective.

Hitting the wrong spot whether with lead or copper, is always likely to lead to a longer death, if at all.

And what experience do you base this assessment of shot placement and the effectiveness of lead vs copper on ?

 

[Chris Richardson]

The problem we all have is that lead poisoning does not necessarily cause obvious effects, the effects are chronic in nature. Individually in the absence of investigations we will not know what our lead burden is and what damage may be going on.

'No safe limit' is a scientific/medical term telling you not to eat/consume lead, it did not come about because off the proposed ban on lead for shooting I am afraid.

Weren’t you happy to feed your family lead shot game 12 months ago ?

 

[Heym SR20]

An old chestnut, I know, but will they ever get round to banning the lead pipes still in use, or using lead on the roofs of building, or does lead not get into water by contact?
KB.

Lead pipes, lead solder, lead roofing materials are all banned from use. If you are doing any work to a property, doing plumbing etc you have to remove the lead pipes. If you are a landlord you cannot let a property with lead pipes. Here are the regs in Scotland.

Landlord Guidance on Lead - Scottish Water

All privately rented properties in Scotland must not have lead pipes, fittings or tanks in the drinking water supply from March 2024, under the The Repairing Standard Statutory Guidance for Private Landlords (www.gov.scot).

www.scottishwater.co.uk

In England the law is not quite as strict - yiu are allowed a maximum lead concentration in your water of 10 micrograms per litre - but this is above what most of the scientific opinion considers to be safe.

 

[Apthorpe]

If a bullet penetrates the chest cavity and hits the heart/lungs does it matter if it is made from lead or copper from the animals perspective?

I'm curious as I have only shot deer at relatively close quarters with copper and it seems pretty devastating when put in the right spot, I'm trying to workout why if the bullet hits the actual target (i.e. the HL as opposed to just hitting the animal) that the damage to the vial organs/arteries will not result in a clean kill.

Is there a reason why at 'long distances' a copper bullet hitting the animal in the right spot would not result in such damage?

Yes. A copper bullet has inferior ballistics meaning that it is more likely to miss the spot at long range and that it will certainly hit with significantly less energy. Thirdly, copper is less frangible and will there do less damage on impact. Three very obvious and scientifically indisputable reasons.
In addition, there are other problems for some users in that it has this far proven impossible to produce viable copper ammunition for particular types of firearm.

 

[jimmer.13]

Lead pipes, lead solder, lead roofing materials are all banned from use. If you are doing any work to a property, doing plumbing etc you have to remove the lead pipes. If you are a landlord you cannot let a property with lead pipes. Here are the regs in Scotland.

Landlord Guidance on Lead - Scottish Water

All privately rented properties in Scotland must not have lead pipes, fittings or tanks in the drinking water supply from March 2024, under the The Repairing Standard Statutory Guidance for Private Landlords (www.gov.scot).

www.scottishwater.co.uk

In England the law is not quite as strict - yiu are allowed a maximum lead concentration in your water of 10 micrograms per litre - but this is above what most of the scientific opinion considers to be safe.

Only for potted water supplies and absolutely not banned for roofing.

 

[Apthorpe]

Lead pipes, lead solder, lead roofing materials are all banned from use.

Yet again you're repeating things you already have been told are untrue. I can PM you a letter dated this year from a branch of government insisting that I use lead roofing materials in a new structure. Why do you keep repeating things you know to be wrong?

If you are doing any work to a property, doing plumbing etc you have to remove the lead pipes. If you are a landlord you cannot let a property with lead pipes. Here are the regs in Scotland.

Landlord Guidance on Lead - Scottish Water

All privately rented properties in Scotland must not have lead pipes, fittings or tanks in the drinking water supply from March 2024, under the The Repairing Standard Statutory Guidance for Private Landlords (www.gov.scot).

www.scottishwater.co.uk

In England the law is not quite as strict - yiu are allowed a maximum lead concentration in your water of 10 micrograms per litre - but this is above what most of the scientific opinion considers to be safe.

 

[GlennUK]

An old chestnut, I know, but will they ever get round to banning the lead pipes still in use, or using lead on the roofs of building, or does lead not get into water by contact?
KB.

Whatabouttery. must try harder next time.

 

[GlennUK]

And what experience do you base this assessment of shot placement and the effectiveness of lead vs copper on ?

LOL really! You think becuase ive only been stalking a while that i can assert that hitting the HL region with any round will damage/destroy it causing death. Most of my shooting prior to this has been with a shotgun/air rifle in both cases correct pointing/aiming of the gun/rifle results in clean kills. On the other hand missing the critical point doesn't.

must try harder

 

[Smellydog]

Its somewhat ironic talking about trying to argue with idiots.

If you understand that the scientific literature indicates that lead is harmful and a cumulative poison, then it is somewhat odd, counter intuitive to suggest that adding lead to your diet in any form does no harm.

If you have evidence that lead is either beneficial or benign to human health by all means post it.

Assuming that no one is arguing that lead has beneficial effects (pauses for a shout from the back!!) the only reasonable question is whether ingesting it is likely on balance to be good or bad for your health, whatever its source.

The anecdotal stories about no harm being done are just that, stories. Anecdotes may be helpful in pointing one where to look but of themselves are not evidence, at least in any scientific sense.

Saying x has eaten lead shot game for years and has not been harmed is not evidence of the effects (or lack of effects) of lead consumed in this, or any other way. About the only thing one case say about x is they are alive and appear in good health or not as the case may be.

The fact you may not notice the impact because its effects are not obvious to you, does not mean that those effects are not there.

As for those who say copper is ineffective, I would argue that hitting your quarry in the right spot will always be effective.

Hitting the wrong spot whether with lead or copper, is always likely to lead to a longer death, if at all.

It is not mandatory that one has to ingest lead. I certainly don't.
In fact despite having a lead water pipe and lead flashing I'd say my work environment and the smoke from passive smoking others tobacco habits is of more concern, despite the science on lead that you all seem to conduct acts of worship to.

If you don't want to use lead then don't.
I do, so leave me be and stop pushing leftie socialistic tendencies upon me.

 

[Apthorpe]

Its somewhat ironic talking about trying to argue with idiots.

It is indeed.

If you understand that the scientific literature indicates that lead is harmful and a cumulative poison, then it is somewhat odd, counter intuitive to suggest that adding lead to your diet in any form does no harm.

Nobody is suggesting that. You're engaging im straw man arguments. If you understand the scientific literature, you will realise that there are dozens of foods and drinks which represent higher lead exposures for the population. They are not being banned or subject to new regulation.

If you have evidence that lead is either beneficial or benign to human health by all means post it.

Assuming that no one is arguing that lead has beneficial effects (pauses for a shout from the back!!) the only reasonable question is whether ingesting it is likely on balance to be good or bad for your health, whatever its source.

Not so. The reasonable question is whether people are ingesting enough of it to do them any harm. The answer to that question is no.

The anecdotal stories about no harm being done are just that, stories. Anecdotes may be helpful in pointing one where to look but of themselves are not evidence, at least in any scientific sense.

They are not anecdotes. They are evidence.

Saying x has eaten lead shot game for years and has not been harmed is not evidence of the effects (or lack of effects) of lead consumed in this, or any other way. About the only thing one case say about x is they are alive and appear in good health or not as the case may be.

The fact you may not notice the impact because its effects are not obvious to you, does not mean that those effects are not there.

Indeed, but that does not mean any ill effects are there. It is highly probable that the absence of symptoms is due to the absence of disease. That is fundamentally how science and medicine work.
You're making an argument which is both unscientific and logically defective. i.e. you're claiming that the complete absence of evidence of harm is evidence that so much harm is being done that legislation is required.

As for those who say copper is ineffective, I would argue that hitting your quarry in the right spot will always be effective.

You.might argue that, but it's another defective argument on at least two grounds.

Hitting the wrong spot whether with lead or copper, is always likely to lead to a longer death, if at all.

But not to the same extent, as you wpuld know if you stopped to think about the validity of your arguments. Lead is more frangible therefore it will do damage over a wider area than copper, which after all is the basis of your argument for not using lead.

 

[GlennUK]

Yes. A copper bullet has inferior ballistics meaning that it is more likely to miss the spot at long range and that it will certainly hit with significantly less energy. Thirdly, copper is less frangible and will there do less damage on impact. Three very obvious and scientifically indisputable reasons.
In addition, there are other problems for some users in that it has this far proven impossible to produce viable copper ammunition for particular types of firearm.

All bullets have their own particular characteristics.

If your assertion is that a shooter using copper is shooting outside of either the bullets/or the shooters technical capabilities that merely says something about the shooter, not the round per se.

And out of curiosity what do you mean by long range, 500, 600, 700m more?

 

[GlennUK]

Not so. The reasonable question is whether people are ingesting enough of it to do them any harm. The answer to that question is no.

Any ingestion will do them harm, the only question is whether they notice and what the effects are,

They are not anecdotes. They are evidence.

Now you're having a real laugh. must try harder.

 

[Chris Richardson]

LOL really! You think becuase ive only been stalking a while that i can assert that hitting the HL region with any round will damage/destroy it causing death. Most of my shooting prior to this has been with a shotgun/air rifle in both cases correct pointing/aiming of the gun/rifle results in clean kills. On the other hand missing the critical point doesn't.

must try harder

Ok so let’s see how many deer have you shot with lead vs copper ? Also you mentioned shotgun and airgun shooting I’m assuming you’ve eaten lead shot game then ?

 

[Apthorpe]

All bullets have their own particular characteristics.

If your assertion is that a shooter using copper is shooting outside of either the bullets/or the shooters technical capabilities that merely says something about the shooter, not the round per se.

It isn't. My assertion is what I wrote, which is indisputable - that copper is ballistically inferior and harder with the consequences which flow from that. That is why you are retending I wrote something different in order to be able to continue arguing and avoid accepting the truth of the matter.

And out of curiosity what do you mean by long range, 500, 600, 700m more?

It depends on the situation and the cartridge, it might be as little as 100m for some cartridges. It is certainly a significant factor well below 500m.

 

[kenbro]

It is not mandatory that one has to ingest lead. I certainly don't.
In fact despite having a lead water pipe and lead flashing I'd say my work environment and the smoke from passive smoking others tobacco habits is of more concern, despite the science on lead that you all seem to conduct acts of worship to.

If you don't want to use lead then don't.
I do, so leave me be and stop pushing leftie socialistic tendencies upon me.

Never tried smoking in my life but now got COPD caused by passive smoking and (More importantly) by my work environment not too different to yours Smelly.
Starting work in 1960 you just thought that’s how things worked in small jobbing shops. Seldom had overalls as we had to buy our own.
No gloves, no hearing (Same in the Army) protection or breathing protection and boy were there some fumes about in a busy Blacksmiths shop.
I suppose things are better now but still not perfect.
KB.

 

[kenbro]

Lead pipes, lead solder, lead roofing materials are all banned from use. If you are doing any work to a property, doing plumbing etc you have to remove the lead pipes. If you are a landlord you cannot let a property with lead pipes. Here are the regs in Scotland.

Landlord Guidance on Lead - Scottish Water

All privately rented properties in Scotland must not have lead pipes, fittings or tanks in the drinking water supply from March 2024, under the The Repairing Standard Statutory Guidance for Private Landlords (www.gov.scot).

www.scottishwater.co.uk

In England the law is not quite as strict - yiu are allowed a maximum lead concentration in your water of 10 micrograms per litre - but this is above what most of the scientific opinion considers to be safe.

Family member’s company make a good living fitting new and repairing lead roofs in London.
KB.

 

[palmer_mike]

Only for potted water supplies and absolutely not banned for roofing.

Certainly not banned for flashings (off cuts are great for casting bully’s BTW)

 

[Heym SR20]

Family member’s company make a good living fitting new and repairing lead roofs in London.
KB.

so they are fully compliant with all the lead at work regulations etc. including full equipment and regular monitoring of all employees.

By the way the permitted levels of lead at 30 micro grams of per dL of blood are very significantly higher than the levels associated with more recent research on lead and cancers. Correlations are at nano gram levels per litre of blood.

The medical view of lead, is that no level of lead is safe.