Latest article on lead micro and nano particles in deer and grouse

[Smellydog]

Just not true, lead begins to strip and melt in the bore once velocity gets to around 1600fps.

That's not quite true.

Lead alloys and good lubricant, gas checks and or paper patching mono lead can achieve much higher velocity.

 

[Dunwaters]

That's not quite true.

Lead alloys and good lubricant, gas checks and or paper patching mono lead can achieve much higher velocity.

How much higher?
Without a gas check ?
You’re still going to top out around 1800fps, and at that speed you’ll be getting serious levels of fouling and stripping.
We stopped using lead projectiles in rifles because nitro powders drove them at velocities that they couldn’t handle, even your beloved .30/30 is too fast.

 

[Dunwaters]

i'm sorry i assumed we were talking about modern bullets not pure lead projectiles which are not really used for deer stalking in todays world

All lead projectiles for modern rifles are jacketed because lead just can’t handle the velocity.
We end up with a very soft dense core in a copper jacket, once it hits, we rely on the jacket to hold it together. That often does not work, this is one reason why we have so many different rojectiles

the other stuff we agree you're just not willing to say that out loud yet

I find the copper stuff “better” for stalking. I find it has more predictable performance, does less carcass damage and is adequate out to 300M or so.
I agree that, on paper, the lead has an advantage in energy retention and trajectory, I just haven’t seen that paper advantage translate into a practical advantage on the ground.
If I was shooting long range precision rifle or F class I would use lead because it would matter, as it stands, for me, copper has the edge.

 

[tackb]

All lead projectiles for modern rifles are jacketed because lead just can’t handle the velocity.
We end up with a very soft dense core in a copper jacket, once it hits, we rely on the jacket to hold it together. That often does not work, this is one reason why we have so many different rojectiles

I find the copper stuff “better” for stalking. I find it has more predictable performance, does less carcass damage and is adequate out to 300M or so.
I agree that, on paper, the lead has an advantage in energy retention and trajectory, I just haven’t seen that paper advantage translate into a practical advantage on the ground.
If I was shooting long range precision rifle or F class I would use lead because it would matter, as it stands, for me, copper has the edge.

really ? who knew...........................

so what you meant is copper is better for you and your limitations.

 

[Dunwaters]

really ? who knew...........................

so what you meant is copper is better for you and your limitations.

What are my limitations?

 

[tackb]

All lead projectiles for modern rifles are jacketed because lead just can’t handle the velocity.
We end up with a very soft dense core in a copper jacket, once it hits, we rely on the jacket to hold it together. That often does not work, this is one reason why we have so many different rojectiles

I find the copper stuff “better” for stalking. I find it has more predictable performance, does less carcass damage and is adequate out to 300M or so.
I agree that, on paper, the lead has an advantage in energy retention and trajectory, I just haven’t seen that paper advantage translate into a practical advantage on the ground.
If I was shooting long range precision rifle or F class I would use lead because it would matter, as it stands, for me, copper has the edge.

your limitation

 

[Dunwaters]

That’s as far as I generally go when stalking, I’m a hunter, not a sniper.
Consider that a limitation if you will. I’m happy to live with it.

 

[Smellydog]

How much higher?
Without a gas check ?
You’re still going to top out around 1800fps, and at that speed you’ll be getting serious levels of fouling and stripping.
We stopped using lead projectiles in rifles because nitro powders drove them at velocities that they couldn’t handle, even your beloved .30/30 is too fast.

Plenty info on the web chap. It's more than you think.
The biggest mistake folk make is just buying a box of bullets and not doing any homework!
Oh I nearly forgot. 3030 is a perfect candidate for high velocity cast bullets and one reason I own one

 

[Dunwaters]

Plenty info on the web chap. It's more than you think.
The biggest mistake folk make is just buying a box of bullets and not doing any homework!
Oh I nearly forgot. 3030 is a perfect candidate for high velocity cast bullets and one reason I own one

Ok, with a gas check and hard alloy you can go a bit higher.
Any luck getting the 30/30 to shoot copper?

 

[Smellydog]

Ok, with a gas check and hard alloy you can go a bit higher.
Any luck getting the 30/30 to shoot copper?

I bought a box of 50 Hornady mono flex tip for 3030 in summer.
Burnt 30 trying to get something resembling a group.
I've now have 20 RDS from that box for display purposes.
I would not like to shoot a deer with them.
A two recovered bullets show no expansion at 100yds.

 

[Smellydog]

Thread '140gn mono flex in my 3030.'

Jul 27, 2025

I picked up 50 140gn Hornady mono flex bullets in preparation of the great persecution headed our way and full of anticipation got off to a bad start!

Using CFE 223 I loaded up 5.

Later at a safe location I shot them from a very stable rest and the group was MASSIVE!

Also at 35gn it clearly was to much powder.

The primers are flatter than a witches blouse!
I've never known a Winchester 94 in 3030 shoot well ringing it's neck so I went home and dropped the charge by 2gn and cleaned the barrel with an array of chemicals in preparation for the next day...

• Smellydog
• Replies: 8
• Forum: Ammunition, Reloading & Ballistics

• 

 

[Dunwaters]

Doesn’t look like thats going to work….

 

[Demetrius]

I had a 308 with a 30" barrel that shot 155 grain Scenars at 3000fps, and the primers looked about the same as that.

D.

 

[Smellydog]

I had a 308 with a 30" barrel that shot 155 grain Scenars at 3000fps, and the primers looked about the same as that.

D.

308 operates at considerably higher pressures than 3030.

 

[Freeforester]

Latest from Anton:

 

[GlennUK]

Yes, but unreasonable to argue that we don't need to deal with the sources of harm in order of severity and there's no objective reason to put lead before other harmful chemicals.

You would have a point if we had control over all other sources of lead, sources of harm we dont. We do have control over lead in this context.

In the same way we wash/peel our fruit and veg to reduce the potential harm arising from contminants to attempt to avoid them, we can avoid lead in shot game.

 

[palmer_mike]

we can avoid lead in shot game.

we can also avoid mercury in seafood and tuna. We can avoid heavy metal exposure from tobacco products, and yet they are not banned.

To view a ban on ammunition which contains lead as anything other than an attack on shooting and freedom of choice just doesn’t make sense.

 

[GlennUK]

we can also avoid mercury in seafood and tuna. We can avoid heavy metal exposure from tobacco products, and yet they are not banned.

To view a ban on ammunition which contains lead as anything other than an attack on shooting and freedom of choice just doesn’t make sense.

I have not suggested lead should be banned.

 

[Apthorpe]

You would have a point if we had control over all other sources of lead, sources of harm we dont. We do have control over lead in this context.

I do have a point. There are literally thousands of sources of greater harm to humans which can be controlled. We also have control over lead in other contexts too.
The topic is either irrational idiocy or a deliberate political attack on shooting. No other explanation bears scrutiny and either option is a disgraceful basis for legislation.

In the same way we wash/peel our fruit and veg to reduce the potential harm arising from contminants to attempt to avoid them, we can avoid lead in shot game.

 

[Chris Richardson]

You would have a point if we had control over all other sources of lead, sources of harm we dont. We do have control over lead in this context.

In the same way we wash/peel our fruit and veg to reduce the potential harm arising from contminants to attempt to avoid them, we can avoid lead in shot game.

Why weren’t you keen on avoiding it 12 months ago when you said it didn’t matter as carcasses were for family consumption? What changed ?