BBC and deer - a refreshingly balanced piece…

[TringSaint]

I’d take issue with that. Usually it’s the removal of species from a system or the introduction of a non-native that goes badly, not the reintroduction. We will need to to a decent evaluation of beaver in due course. Sure some will be frustrated by them - but plenty of people will be frustrated by having their homes flooded now that we knackered our river systems too.
As for management of predators that has to be part of the deal, just as it is on the continent. People need to live with wildlife and the needs of people will always rightly come first. But before we have a problem with wolves we need to have a few on the ground no!

That may be an option for certain parts of the UK (Scotland, Pennines, mid wales and the brecons, moors, etc) but near me it would be a disaster - too many people

 

[VSS]

That doesnt really sound fair, surely it should be like a car? Same with live stock, lamb for market worth less than a prize winning ram.

It was a slightly cynical remark on my part, based on compensation paid for livestock in the case of compulsory culling during a disease outbreak. It matters not whether it's a bullock being fattened for the local mart or one that's just won the Royal Welsh Show: compensation is based on slaughter value, and that's that.

(Caveat: this has been challenged many times, as you can well imagine, and as a result changes to the system may have been made that I am unaware of).

 

[Mardler]

I’d take issue with that. Usually it’s the removal of species from a system or the introduction of a non-native that goes badly, not the reintroduction. We will need to to a decent evaluation of beaver in due course. Sure some will be frustrated by them - but plenty of people will be frustrated by having their homes flooded now that we knackered our river systems too.
As for management of predators that has to be part of the deal, just as it is on the continent. People need to live with wildlife and the needs of people will always rightly come first. But before we have a problem with wolves we need to have a few on the ground no!

Take issue all you like,
1. Scottish Beavers being culled
2. European Wolves being culled
3. Italian Brown bears being culled
All relatively recent reintroductions of native species causing apparently unforseen problems
But fully agree, its introduction of non-natives which also goes badly - for example muntjac, water deer..........lets not try and sort a problem "we" have created with another potential problem
New Years resolution - Shoot more deer than last year

 

[Bo Diddley]

If you can go into a butchers and pay £42.50 per kg for a joint of meat without even asking the price, then you can't be that under privileged or low paid.
I certainly don't know any ordinary, everyday folk who can afford to do that, and I live in an area where incomes are typically low.

I was offered two whole saddles of venison, four whole hindquarters, and four shoulders for £60 the other day, do you think that was too deer....

Sorry, I'll get my coat

 

[k760]

I think you must've misread my post.
I'm not selling venison to a few privileged high earners. I'm selling it to ordinary everyday folk in an area where incomes are typically very low.
And I'm struggling to keep up with the demand.

You post about the amount of meat is interesting, it's

You're not reading my posts either.
Where did I say £42.50 per kg for a joint of meat?
I didn't!
I made it quite clear that £42.50 per kg was for the highest priced cut that I sell (ie, loin butterfly steaks). A roasting joint would typically be half that price per kg, which I would expect most people on here who know anything about venison to understand.
The more times I have to pick up my knife the more expensive it gets.

Perhaps if I tell you exactly what my local gardener customer got for his £200 that will give you a better context:

2x mini roasting joints
1x medium roasting joint
6x 500g packs of mince
6x 350g packs of diced stewing steak
5x packs of 4 haunch medallions
2x packs of 2 tenderloin fillets
2x packs of 4 burgers.
TOTAL £208

So a nice balance of high end cuts, mid priced cuts and low value cuts. A fair few kg of meat that'll stock his freezer for a while.
And the order was placed without any reference to prices.
(And around here a gardener is typically on £16 per hour, which most people would consider to be a pretty low income).

You're not reading my posts either.
Where did I say £42.50 per kg for a joint of meat?
I didn't!
I made it quite clear that £42.50 per kg was for the highest priced cut that I sell (ie, loin butterfly steaks). A roasting joint would typically be half that price per kg, which I would expect most people on here who know anything about venison to understand.
The more times I have to pick up my knife the more expensive it gets.

Perhaps if I tell you exactly what my local gardener customer got for his £200 that will give you a better context:

2x mini roasting joints
1x medium roasting joint
6x 500g packs of mince
6x 350g packs of diced stewing steak
5x packs of 4 haunch medallions
2x packs of 2 tenderloin fillets
2x packs of 4 burgers.
TOTAL £208

So a nice balance of high end cuts, mid priced cuts and low value cuts. A fair few kg of meat that'll stock his freezer for a while.
And the order was placed without any reference to prices.
(And around here a gardener is typically on £16 per hour, which most people would consider to be a pretty low income).

To be fair I've read your post but don't agree with it. The fact that you think I'm wrong and others think you're right is also part of the problem. You've said folk don't care about the kg price but the portion size. That cannot be a universal consideration on the basis portion sizes vary - the semantics of a sausage being one, two or half a portion is entirely irrelevant to my point. In my (clearly limited and perhaps more economically minded view) £200 in one go on an order of meat seems a lot. Add in then cuts, joints, whatever you wish to call them, that cost up £45/kg and for somebody like me with my economy hat on, would see that as expensive. I understand the mark ups and work and prep involved too, but as per my original, the supplied value of a carcass that ends up in a dish or behind a counter doesn't make sense in my head. Unless you're telling me you sell venison for less than the equivalent cut of pork, lamb, beef or minced anything, then I will withdraw to a darken room for a lie down. As far as I can work out, it isn't! In which case - why can't it be and why can't it be more widely available and thus feed the nation, reduce the impact herds are having etc etc...?

I'm almost giddy with excitement and anticipation of being proven wrong ... Help me to understand

 

[ABL]

Wouldnt it make more sense to control the deer, than introduce a predator to sort a man made problem, other countries have more wild space and wolves cause conflict.
Hundreds of years of no wolves has set us up for a massive shock.
Compensating farmers for a few dead sheep is one thing, pet ponies would be bad press, paying for a few dead race horses near newmarket or cheltnam?
Where is that coming from?

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. In a highly man influenced environment the main controlling factor of deer is going to be either man or disease. I doubt anyone here wants the latter, nor had anyone here come up with a way of making the former work. But don't take from that position that there's no role for predators. Relying on ecosystem design and control by man for man is the most dangerous vanity going and will land us all in a right mess. Work with systems where we can, not against them - the tale of King Canute was intended to be instructive here. The starting point of this whole piece by BBC is we have too many deer and, for many reasons that this forum is well aware of, we aren't shooting enough of them. I don't see any instant fix out there, so all I'm arguing is that we need to keep an open mind about all the options - if every faction insists that only their way can work we will end up in a People's Front for Judea situation, for those of a similar age...

 

[Freeforester]

It's a long time since I read up anything about wolves, but one thing I do recall reading somewhere is that the territorial range that a wolf pack requires is huge, to the extent that the available land area of the UK would only support something like two packs of half-a-dozen wolves.
(Ok, so I completely made up those numbers, but you get my gist I hope. Perhaps someone could look it up and correct me?)

Highest density of wolves on the planet is a pack of 116 in a relatively small corner of the Netherlands.

Pet dogs, ponies indeed anything will be fair game to the wolves, ask around and you’ll find out from people in countries where they’ve been reintroduced. They don’t live exclusively on a diet of venison - there’s plenty of easier pickings to consider, and be assured the compensation schemes offered up as a ‘sweetener’ oblige the aggrieved applicant to jump although so many hoops as to render them non-viable for anyone losing livestock to gain any realistic recompense.

As is usual, people with no skin in the game and media types etc tend to try to dictate terms to those who are trying to make an honest living with already plenty of ‘distractions’ and bureaucratic nonsense to contend with, without the added stress and worry of predation. Von der Leyen’s own prize pet pony was not exempt from the attentions of the local wolves.

 

[ABL]

That may be an option for certain parts of the UK (Scotland, Pennines, mid wales and the brecons, moors, etc) but near me it would be a disaster - too many people

I don't think it would. I live in the southeast too. I was in Italy in the summer, near Pisa. There were wolves there - I was shown a skull from one of their kills. The wolf pack only passed through every few months. No one was bothered by them. My kids played in the fields up in the hills too while we were there. Wolves are very shy and keep away from people. They would merge into the wooded lowlands without most people ever noticing.
As I've said before, predators are not the silver bullet, anymore than rewilding is the answer for the countryside - but we shouldn't rule it out as part of the mix, and ironically I suspect it would have real benefits for hunters. Just one view of course...

 

[Donkey Basher]

Yup they will kill some livestock - they are predators after all. But the numbers are very small, usually supported under a compensation scheme and economically dwarfed by the benefits they provide. It’s amazing how anxious people in UK get about this, but when did it stop anyone here taking a holiday to France or Spain with the kids? Would it stop you going there?

What this sort of response doesn't take into consideration is “population density” however it does draw into question the “density of the population”.

France has a population of around 68 million people & a land area of over 550,000 sqkm, the majority of the population live in a small proportion (area wise) of the country leaving very low density in rural areas & hence less likelihood of clashes between humans & apex predators. Similarly Spain has less than 50 million people & over 500,000 sqkm with similar spread of population.

Compare this to the UK which has a population approaching 70 million and a land area of around 244,000 sqkm - that’s similar number of people to France but crammed into a land area less than 44% the size.

We’re replying in a thread that’s about the difficulty & need to control deer that have reached population proportions that sees them out of control, & roaming urban areas. Now imagine the situation 10, 15, 20 years after release of wolves where packs have grown too large for the area they were released in, young males have been forced out to find new territories & have formed new packs, think how we could possibly manage these populations?

Sorry if this upsets anyone, it’s just my view on the subject.

 

[angusb1]

I think the thing the rewilders are missing about deer control is we have literally lived for thousands of years in this country with no predators that feed on deer except humans. Reintroducing the predators that feed on deer is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, we just need to shoot more deer like we always used to. What other predator will discriminate between deer and livestock/pets like humans will?

 

[Freeforester]

Sorry wrong thread!

 

[Robby56]

It was a slightly cynical remark on my part, based on compensation paid for livestock in the case of compulsory culling during a disease outbreak. It matters not whether it's a bullock being fattened for the local mart or one that's just won the Royal Welsh Show: compensation is based on slaughter value, and that's that.

(Caveat: this has been challenged many times, as you can well imagine, and as a result changes to the system may have been made that I am unaware of).

I think you'll find that owners of prize winning cattle and Cheltenham winners have them insured for a bit more than slaughter value. If they've got any sense.

 

[Freeforester]

Re the price/cost thing - 50% more expensive than loin steaks, per kilo, at £65/kilo;


Pack price £2.73; sufficient for an ‘amuse-bouche’ for 4/6 people - affordable luxury? Or not? Let the customer decide. The more accomplished ‘girls of negotiable virtue’ don’t give their goods away either, that’s just the way of the world.

What people are able to decide is whether the skills/efforts of the seller are of value and worth to the buyer.

Oh - and still got the loin steaks to sell at the local rate or what I let them go at (£35/kg)

 

[Freeforester]

WRT reintroduction of wolves, what might a herd of fallow do when confronted with a hungry hunting pack in the South? Stop at the road and give up? Or get involved with the traffic rather than face certain death among the pack?

Not much point in releasing them in the highlands where the deer are controlled on the hill pretty well on the whole, if the ‘problem numbers’ lie elsewhere? Or is this merely a vanity project by those who overstate damage to commercial forestry/‘natural heritage’ here (much of which is self inflicted anyway) or they want the socioeconomic of the rural highlands to be shaped in their own particular mould/viewpoint - why not throw in a few beads and mirrors while they’re at it?

 

[wytonpjs]

Oh - and still got the loin steaks to sell at the local rate or what I let them go at (£35/kg)

Currently selling loin steaks here at £22/kg - maybe time to see whether the local market here will stand a price increase

 

[TringSaint]

What this sort of response doesn't take into consideration is “population density” however it does draw into question the “density of the population”.

France has a population of around 68 million people & a land area of over 550,000 sqkm, the majority of the population live in a small proportion (area wise) of the country leaving very low density in rural areas & hence less likelihood of clashes between humans & apex predators. Similarly Spain has less than 50 million people & over 500,000 sqkm with similar spread of population.

Compare this to the UK which has a population approaching 70 million and a land area of around 244,000 sqkm - that’s similar number of people to France but crammed into a land area less than 44% the size.

We’re replying in a thread that’s about the difficulty & need to control deer that have reached population proportions that sees them out of control, & roaming urban areas. Now imagine the situation 10, 15, 20 years after release of wolves where packs have grown too large for the area they were released in, young males have been forced out to find new territories & have formed new packs, think how we could possibly manage these populations?

Sorry if this upsets anyone, it’s just my view on the subject.

And if you look at France, Spain and Italy, all of those countries have a very different view and attitude towards hunters and hunted food.
The UK population has become cosseted in the way we buy our meat, wanting everything done to them so that they can fully disassociate themselves from the fact that they are chowing down on the back end of some animal, whereas over there the consumer actively seeks out food with high provenance, and there is no greater provenance than for hunted food.

When I had my place in France, every wood was designated for ‘chase’ and also ‘champignons’ and many fields surrounding woods had large towers in them to support the culling of deer. It’s part of the landscape and their culture - we don’t have that, hence why we are in this quandary.

We have two non native species that live (currently) in densely populated areas that need to be shot - can’t release bears or wolves in the Home Counties, and other native species that are growing in number because of a lack of coordinated approach to managing deer - landowners actively choosing to protect deer rather than manage them, etc.
On that basis, would they want bears or wolves killing deer thy currently protect from hunters?
And then you have the predators themselves - would they exclusively target deer (wild and hard to catch) or revert to livestock (fenced in and much easier to target).

For me, the use of predators is fanciful. The insurance risk alone would deem it unviable in any part of the UK apart from the most wild and remote parts of Scotland and maybe NI.

This means that stalkers need to do a better job and if that means teaming up with other stalkers to form regional DMG’s then so be it. But we can’t just do what we are doing today and expect a different outcome.

 

[Mardler]

I don't think it would. I live in the southeast too. I was in Italy in the summer, near Pisa. There were wolves there - I was shown a skull from one of their kills. The wolf pack only passed through every few months. No one was bothered by them. My kids played in the fields up in the hills too while we were there. Wolves are very shy and keep away from people. They would merge into the wooded lowlands without most people ever noticing.
As I've said before, predators are not the silver bullet, anymore than rewilding is the answer for the countryside - but we shouldn't rule it out as part of the mix, and ironically I suspect it would have real benefits for hunters. Just one view of course...

And a view you are fully entitled to
I'm in northern Italy at the moment and the signs warning of bear activity are present in populated areas, one fatality a couple of years ago and yearly attacks
Ask the locals here what they think and it's generally not positive - we have a very different environment to this but we should take note
Be careful what you wish for
Although could make SpringWarch worth viewing

 

[Mardler]

And if you look at France, Spain and Italy, all of those countries have a very different view and attitude towards hunters and hunted food.
The UK population has become cosseted in the way we buy our meat, wanting everything done to them so that they can fully disassociate themselves from the fact that they are chowing down on the back end of some animal, whereas over there the consumer actively seeks out food with high provenance, and there is no greater provenance than for hunted food.

When I had my place in France, every wood was designated for ‘chase’ and also ‘champignons’ and many fields surrounding woods had large towers in them to support the culling of deer. It’s part of the landscape and their culture - we don’t have that, hence why we are in this quandary.

We have two non native species that live (currently) in densely populated areas that need to be shot - can’t release bears or wolves in the Home Counties, and other native species that are growing in number because of a lack of coordinated approach to managing deer - landowners actively choosing to protect deer rather than manage them, etc.
On that basis, would they want bears or wolves killing deer thy currently protect from hunters?
And then you have the predators themselves - would they exclusively target deer (wild and hard to catch) or revert to livestock (fenced in and much easier to target).

For me, the use of predators is fanciful. The insurance risk alone would deem it unviable in any part of the UK apart from the most wild and remote parts of Scotland and maybe NI.

This means that stalkers need to do a better job and if that means teaming up with other stalkers to form regional DMG’s then so be it. But we can’t just do what we are doing today and expect a different outcome.

Spot on

 

[VSS]

I think you'll find that owners of prize winning cattle and Cheltenham winners have them insured for a bit more than slaughter value. If they've got any sense.

Yes, one would hope so, because any compensation paid isn’t likely to come anywhere near it.
But what's your chances of being able to insure against wolf attacks if the government has just released wolves in your area? About zero, I reckon.

 

[bennyblanco]

I wonder if a change in the legal shooting window would increase numbers taken? 2hrs pre dawn and 2hrs post sunset without the faff of getting a night shooting licence.

Here in the south east the cost of stalking doesn't help, it's taken eleven years since passing my dsc1 to actually get permission to shoot deer.
Everything local has a massive dollar value, professionals can happily spaff £150 on a few hours out and the same again if they actually shoot something but for those in normal jobs with kids and a mortgage it's well out of reach.